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Subject: Re: Fritz blunder ?

Author: Arifur Rahman

Date: 05:31:21 11/22/05

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On November 22, 2005 at 08:26:31, Arifur Rahman wrote:

>On November 21, 2005 at 21:01:45, Richard Heldmann wrote:
>
>>On November 21, 2005 at 14:55:58, Arifur Rahman wrote:
>>
>>>The position after 39 Qg3 seems to be a difficult for the chess programs, not
>>>only for Fritz 9.
>>>
>>>I checked the position with Shredder 9.
>>>
>>>After 8 minutes at depth 19 Shredder 9 likes the move 39...Bc2?? also. Shredder
>>>rates the move as the second best (with eval -2.6) after the first choice Qg3.
>>>
>>>Maybe both Fritz and Shredder would discard the move totally with faster
>>>hardware at deeper depth. Maybe Fritz didnt have enough time at move 39, just
>>>before the time control.
>>>
>>>
>>>/Arifur
>>
>>I can't agree, on my machine the analysis by Shredder 9.1 UCI  seems clear.
>>Fritz 9 has a problem with this position.
>>
>>6k1/5p2/pn1p4/N2p2p1/PP1Pp2q/1BrbP1QP/6K1/4R3 b - -
>>
>>Engine: Shredder 9 UCI (256 MB)
>>by Stefan Meyer-Kahlen
>>
>>1/02   0:00   +0.81--  1...Qxg3+ (2)
>>
>>1/02   0:00   +0.81    1...Qxg3+ (5)
>>
>>1/07   0:00   +0.84++  1...Rc7 (50)
>>
>>1/07   0:00   +0.97    1...Rc7 2.Qxh4 gxh4 (59)
>>
>>1/11   0:00   +1.24++  1...Qh6 (173)
>>
>>1/11   0:00   +1.24    1...Qh6 (174)
>>
>>2/05   0:00   +1.01    1...Qh6 2.Rg1 (244)
>>
>>2/05   0:00   +1.42++  1...Qxg3+ (271)
>>
>>2/05   0:00   +1.42    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 (299)
>>
>>3/07   0:00   +1.28    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.h4 (560)
>>
>>3/08   0:00   +1.33++  1...Qh6 (904)
>>
>>3/08   0:00   +1.43    1...Qh6 2.Rg1 f5 (1.026)
>>
>>3/08   0:00   +1.52++  1...Bc2 (1.653)
>>
>>3/08   0:00   +2.03++  1...Bc2 (1.782)
>>
>>3/09   0:00   +2.18    1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 gxh4 3.Ba2 Bxa4 (1.886)
>>
>>4/09   0:00   +2.18    1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 gxh4 3.Ba2 Bxa4 (2.273)
>>
>>5/10   0:00   +2.43++  1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 (3.396)
>>
>>5/12   0:00   +2.45    1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 gxh4 3.Rc1 Rxb3
>>                       4.Rxc2 (3.898) 243
>>
>>6/14   0:00   +2.38    1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 gxh4 3.Bxc2 Rxc2+
>>                       4.Kf1 Nxa4 5.Nb7 Rb2 (9.632) 301
>>
>>7/17   0:00   +2.13--  1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 (24.052) 304
>>
>>7/17   0:00   +1.69    1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 gxh4 3.Rc1 Rxb3
>>                       4.Nxb3 Bxb3 5.Rc6 Nxa4 6.Rxa6 (27.421) 347
>>
>>7/19   0:00   +1.70++  1...Qxg3+ (34.506) 313
>>
>>7/19   0:00   +2.04    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 Bc4 (46.309) 328
>>
>>8/20   0:00   +2.25    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Kf2 Bc2 4.Bxc2 Rxc2+
>>                       5.Kg3 Nc4 6.Nb7 Kf7 (88.086) 402
>>
>>9/22   0:00   +2.00--  1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 (111.008) 417
>>
>>9/22   0:00   +1.90    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Kf2 Kg7 4.Bd1 Ra3
>>                       5.Nb7 Ra2+ 6.Kg3 Nxa4 7.Nxd6 (135.599) 412
>>
>>9/22   0:00   +1.91++  1...Bc2 (153.881) 427
>>
>>9/22   0:00   +1.98    1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 gxh4 3.Rc1 Rxb3
>>                       4.Nxb3 Bxb3 5.Rc6 Nxa4 6.Rxa6 Nc3
>>                       7.Rxd6 (162.760) 416
>>
>>10/20  0:00   +1.73--  1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 (201.540) 429
>>
>>10/25  0:00   +1.60    1...Bc2 2.Qxh4 gxh4 3.Rc1 Rxb3
>>                       4.Nxb3 Bxb3 5.Rc6 Nc4 6.Rxa6 Nxe3+
>>                       7.Kf2 Nd1+ 8.Ke1 Kf8 9.Rxd6 Bxa4 (239.915) 438
>>
>>10/25  0:00   +1.61++  1...Qxg3+ (248.120) 428
>>
>>10/25  0:00   +1.95    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Kf2 Kg7 4.Bd1 f4
>>                       5.exf4 gxf4 6.Rg1+ Kh6 7.h4 Bc2
>>                       8.Be2 (297.394) 442
>>
>>11/29  0:01   +2.19    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Kf2 Kg7 4.Bd1 f4
>>                       5.exf4 gxf4 6.h4 Bc2 7.Rg1+ Kf6
>>                       8.Be2 Rh3 (591.968) 485
>>
>>12/34  0:02   +2.43    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 f4+ 4.Kg4 f3 (1.306.045) 519
>>
>>13/33  0:04   +2.44    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 f4+ 4.Kh2 fxe3
>>                       5.Rxg5+ Kf7 6.Rg1 Bc4 7.Bxc4 dxc4
>>                       8.h4 Nxa4 9.Kg3 d5 10.h5 (2.164.867) 526
>>
>>14/33  0:06   +2.40    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 f4+ 4.Kh2 fxe3
>>                       5.Rxg5+ Kf7 6.Rg1 Bc4 7.Bxc4 dxc4
>>                       8.b5 axb5 9.axb5 Ra3 10.Nc6 Rb3
>>                       11.Rf1+ Ke6 (3.560.986) 534
>>
>>15/34  0:11   +2.64    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 f4+ 4.Kh2 fxe3
>>                       5.Rxg5+ Kh7 6.Rg1 Bc2 7.Bxc2 Rxc2+
>>                       8.Kg3 Nxa4 (6.374.538) 532
>>
>>16/36  0:19   +2.70    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 f4+ 4.Kh2 fxe3
>>                       5.Rxg5+ Kh7 6.Rg1 Bc2 7.Bxc2 Rxc2+
>>                       8.Kg3 Nxa4 9.Kf4 Rh2 10.Kg3 Rf2
>>                       11.Nc6 Nc3 (10.483.308) 539
>>
>>17/38  0:35   +2.75    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 f4+ 4.Kh2 fxe3
>>                       5.Rxg5+ Kf7 6.Rg1 Bc2 7.Bxc2 Rxc2+
>>                       8.Kg3 Nxa4 9.Kf4 Rf2+ 10.Kxe3 Rf3+
>>                       11.Kd2 Rd3+ 12.Ke1 Rxh3 13.Nc6 Nc3 (19.153.075) 533
>>
>>18/43  1:11   +2.83    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 f4+ 4.Kh2 fxe3
>>                       5.Rxg5+ Kf7 6.Rg1 Bc2 7.Bxc2 Rxc2+
>>                       8.Kg3 Nxa4 9.Kf4 Rf2+ 10.Kxe3 Rf3+
>>                       11.Kd2 Rxh3 12.Nc6 Rd3+ (37.209.711) 522
>>
>>19/44  2:30   +3.02    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Rg1 f4+ 4.Kh2 fxe3
>>                       5.Rxg5+ Kf7 6.Rg1 Bc2 7.Bxc2 Rxc2+
>>                       8.Kg3 Nxa4 9.Rh1 Nb2 (77.377.667) 513
>>
>>20/50  5:23   +3.17    1...Qxg3+ 2.Kxg3 f5 3.Kf2 f4 4.Bd1 Bc2
>>                       5.Bxc2 Rxc2+ 6.Re2 Rxe2+ 7.Kxe2 f3+
>>                       8.Ke1 (164.580.292) 508
>
>People(execpt Uri Blass) dont seems to understand the point. Of course Qxg3 is
>the best move (1st choice), Shredder 9 finds it. I already wrote this in my
>post. Bxc2 was the SECOND best move for Shredder.

Sorry, above should be Bc2, not Bxc2.

>
>But run Shredder with 3 or 2 move option (infinite analysis) for 5 or 6 minutes.
>Bxc2 should NOT be up there among the top 3 moves. How can a good engine allow a
>losing move as the second best move in a winning position?
>
>Remember that at move 39 Fritz didnt think for 20 min or so,also Fritz is on a
>laptop.



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