Author: Alexander Kure
Date: 10:18:16 11/05/99
Go up one level in this thread
Hi Thorsten, On November 05, 1999 at 12:14:48, Thorsten Czub wrote: >On November 05, 1999 at 09:42:57, Alexander Kure wrote: > >>Never thought of me being a king's indian fan ;-) >>When Nimzo crushed Shredder in Paderborn 98 with the Belgrade Gambit was I >>supposed to be a Belgrade Gambit fan? >>The truth is that the King's Indian, like the Sicilian, is an opening which >>leads to unbalanced positions where the 'better' program, the program which >>handles the position better, will succeed. > >better prepared ! >but look: >some programs win because they are prepared to special positions, because >they KNOW something about e.g. king-attack. >if i let them play in a closed game, no captures, >and the opponent gives no chance to king attack by overprotecting pieces >and careful keeping position close than what shall the king-attacker do? > >other programs outsearch the opponent. >if you choose a position that is unbalanced and needs e.g. a special knowledge >to handle it, and the opponent does not know about this because >it normally wins with outsearching, than you have made a trap, if you >recognize it or not. I would not call this a trap. It is just selecting openings which lead to positions where the program "feels" comfortable and plays reasonable moves. > > >>If you play unbalanced positions >>better be prepared for them! > >i prefer to choose the opening i am prepared for. >and not let the opponent chose the opening HE is prepared for. >why shall i give the initiative and the action to my opponent ? So from you definition you are setting the trap! > > >> If you are not prepared playing specific positions >>arising after specific openings - simply do not play them. > >aha. i will tell this to tiger ! don't play te openings you are not >prepared to play :-)) > >>As Computer chess programs cannot play chess it is always a challenge for me to >>select openings where they will not ruin too much by playing the arising >>positions. This has nothing to do with setting traps. > >what you call "it is always a challenge for me to select openings where" > >IS the trap of the thing. See above. > >of course there is no primitive trap... the trap is YOU choosing an opening >you call : an opening not easy to handle for programs. > >I expect you know how Nimzo handles it against several programs, am i right ? >you have - i guess so - seen many chess-programs trying to survive >with white against nimzo having black, right ? and from what you have >seen you laugh and chose this opening, because you know that PRGS >have problems to understand the idea. BECAUSE it is unbalanced. >Because the horizont-effect damages whites efforts to defend. This is correct. > >And therefore: simsalabim: the trap is YOU. > >But jeroen could have done the same thing. and i am sure he has prepared >to. but he thought you would play something else. >So - in the end we have a duell jeroen vs. alex. >I would have preferred a game tiger - quest instead. >therefore I would have thrown black early out of book and watched >out what THE ENGINES play. You have to ask Jeroen why he selected this variation. > >>The game Tiger vs. Quest was a classical example of how to handle a king's >>attack. To me it was the best game in the Dutch Open so far. > >hm. >which move/position black was out of book ? >What was the first computed move of quest ? >When was tiger out of book ? > >>By the way Quest is *not* using Nimzo's opening book. I created a new one for >>Fritz 6. This is the book they use in Leiden. > >ok. i meant that YOU decided what to play. >remember your game against cstal in aegon or where it was. have forgotten. >all i know is that you played kingsindian and we talked about this >opening during the game or later, you remember ? > >I would like to see how CSTal would have played against my commercial >fritz6 .... but i need to know WHEN both tiger and quest left opening >books... > >Anyone knows WHEN ? > > >>Greetings >>Alex First of all here is the stem game of the line Tiger vs. Quest: [Event "Monaco blind"] [Site "Monaco"] [Date "1995.??.??"] [Round "8"] [White "Shirov, Alexei"] [Black "Nunn, John DM"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "E99"] [WhiteElo "2710"] [BlackElo "2630"] [PlyCount "87"] [EventDate "1995.03.??"] [Source "ChessBase"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Be3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bf2 g5 13. a4 Ng6 14. a5 Rf7 15. c5 Nxc5 16. Bxc5 dxc5 17. Bc4 Kh8 18. a6 bxa6 19. Nd3 Bf8 20. Na4 g4 21. fxg4 Qg5 22. Nf2 Bd6 23. Ra3 Nh4 24. Rh3 Bd7 25. Nc3 Rg8 26. Be2 c4 27. g3 fxg3 28. hxg3 Ng6 29. Rh5 Qe3 30. Kg2 Rgf8 31. Rf5 Ne7 32. Rxf7 Rxf7 33. Bxc4 Ng6 34. Qe2 Qd4 35. Bxa6 Bc5 36. Bb5 Bc8 37. Nd3 Rxf1 38. Qxf1 Bb6 39. Be8 Kg7 40. g5 Nf4+ 41. gxf4 Qe3 42. f5 Qxg5+ 43. Kh2 Qh4+ 44. Qh3 1-0 Now the game Quest vs. Tiger: [Event "DOCCC 1999"] [Site "Leiden, NL"] [Date "1999.10.31"] [Round "5"] [White "Chess Tiger"] [Black "Quest"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "E99"] [PlyCount "140"] [EventDate "1999.??.??"] 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Be3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bf2 g5 13. a4 Ng6 14. a5 Rf7 15. c5 Nxc5 16. Bxc5 dxc5 17. Bc4 Kh8 18. a6 bxa6 19. Nd3 Bf8 20. Na4 g4 21. fxg4 Qg5 22. Nf2 Bd6 23. Ra3 Nh4 24. Rh3 f3 25. gxf3 Bd7 26. Nc3 Raf8 27. Be2 Bb5 28. Nxb5 axb5 29. b3 a6 30. Qd3 Be7 31. Ra1 Qf6 32. Qc3 Ng6 33. Nd3 Qg5 34. Qc1 c4 35. bxc4 bxc4 36. Rh5 Qxc1+ 37. Nxc1 Nh4 38. Bxc4 Nxf3+ 39. Kh1 Nh4 40. Nb3 Rf2 41. g5 R8f4 42. Na5 Nf3 43. g6 h6 44. Rxh6+ Kg7 45. Rh7+ Kxg6 46. Rh3 Kf6 47. Bxa6 Ng5 48. Rg3 Bc5 49. Nb7 Rh4 50. Rf1 Rhxh2+ 51. Kg1 Bb6 52. Rxf2+ Rxf2 53. Kh1 Nxe4 54. Rg4 Rf4 55. Rg8 Kf7 56. Rh8 Rg4 57. Nd8+ Kg7 58. Re8 Bg1 59. Re7+ Kf8 60. Rf7+ Ke8 61. Nc6 Rg5 62. Bd3 Kxf7 63. Bxe4 Kf6 64. Bc2 Rg4 65. Bd1 Rg3 66. Bc2 Bc5 67. Nb8 Bd6 68. Bd1 Kf5 69. Nc6 Kf4 70. Nd8 e4 0-1 After 24.Rh3 Quest was "out of book" or more precisely he had no active move in his tournament book. He has some more moves of the game Shirov - Nunn above as you can examine in the Fritz 6 book but they were not set as active moves in tournament play, because I decided that after 23...Nh4 the setup of black's pieces is enough and black can be left on his own. Tiger seemed to have more moves in his book but was immediately thrown out after Quest's interesting move 24...f3 (Nunn played 24...Bd7). Looking closer at the outcoming position it is clear that black has a dangerous attack and therefore good prospects for winning the game. In the game Shirov - Nunn black also had a very promising position but lost the game, but this had nothing to do with the opening. Here is another interesting fact: Most programms select their opening moves by the number of games where a specific move was played and by the winning percentage of that move. What a nonsense! In this case they would have never followed Shirov - Nunn! Here is the game I played against CS-Tal at the last Aegon tournament: [Event "The Hague AEGON"] [Site "The Hague"] [Date "1997.??.??"] [Round "4"] [White "Comp Chess System Tal"] [Black "Kure, Alexander"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "E99"] [BlackElo "2240"] [PlyCount "67"] [EventDate "1997.??.??"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "1997.11.17"] 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 g6 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. e4 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Nd3 f5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. f3 f4 13. c5 g5 14. cxd6 cxd6 15. Nf2 Ng6 16. Qc2 Rf7 17. Rfc1 Ne8 18. a4 Bf8 19. Qb3 Rg7 20. Kf1 h5 21. Nb5 Nh4 22. Bd1 g4 23. fxg4 hxg4 24. g3 Nf6 25. gxf4 exf4 26. Bxf4 Nh5 27. Bg3 Rf7 28. Rxc8 Rxc8 29. Bxg4 Nxg3+ 30. Qxg3 Rg7 31. Qf4 Rxg4 32. Nxg4 Ng6 33. Qf5 Kg7 34. Nd4 1-0 Greetings Alex
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