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Subject: Re: Why would you defend a troublemaker?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 10:14:57 02/08/00

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On February 07, 2000 at 21:49:34, Thorsten Czub wrote:

>On February 07, 2000 at 21:09:47, KarinsDad wrote:
>
>>Hi Thorsten,
>
>>I had a long message that I spent about 30 minutes on and Karin came over and
>>hit the Escape key. Does anyone know how to recover what you typed after that is
>>done in IE?
>
>stupid computers...
>
>>In any case, the bottom line of what I said is that I think there is a double
>>standard for you between content and personal stuff, regardless of your denials
>>in your previous message.
>
>>When you know it is Chris, I have never seen an unfriendly word (or even a
>>disagreement for that matter) from you to him. When you did not know it was
>>Chris (when it was Herman Hesse), you were so venomous to him that many of those
>>posts were deleted.
>
>sound very natural to me.
>as i said: even when somebody is my best friend, it can happen that
>i do attack him like hell.
>depends on the topic.


Here is an important question:

  Chris formed a new 'chess forum'.  Why, then, does he want to come
_here_ and raise all of this hell, over and over and over, making
personal comments here and in r.g.c.c, etc?  When he has his _own_
forum where he can discuss what he wants to, when he wants to, and how
he wants to.

IE perhaps I like to play 9-ball on the local pool table.  And everybody
else wants to play 8-ball.  I go buy my own table, but rather than playing
9-ball on it, I go to the local pool table and raise hell because nobody
wants to play 9-ball with me.

I don't get it...

I'm pretty sure I don't _want_ to get it...




>of course i am a human beeing, and social-stuff does influence me too.
>if chris would threaten another computerchess-company or magazin
>with a law suit he would get hottest answers from me.
>look - i do even have very hot arguments with my girl friend,
>but thats the normal thing.
>therefore, especially therefore it is important that the argument, the
>hot discussions or the points are NOT personal.
>it's about life. if somebody is not discussing or arguing, it's not anymore
>alive. of course i have friends i do argue more and others i do argue less.
>i do have a friend called uli. often when we "discuss" on telephone or
>when we do computerchess, or watch an event or wherever we meet and others
>are near us they believe we kill us. we have very heavy arguments.
>but this is what i am used to. he is a teacher and teachers and other
>dictators are my favourite opponents. but he is one of my best friends.
>and i have met them via computerchess. he read about me in a magazin,
>and one day gave me a call. bernd e.g. cannot stand to see us discuss this way.
>he says we are killing each other with words. and bernd is a strong chess
>player. i thought he is used to battles.
>i like this. philosophy is one of my favourite topics. and it lives from
>having different point of views. but it is not about killing people.
>it's not about world-wars. philosophy is about different ideas about how
>anything works. and i am used to this.
>
>> I even recall him posting things such as "I did not mean to
>>offend or insult you. I respect you a lot." (since he knew it was you and did
>>not mean to antagonize you) and you blasted him in response (the phrase that
>>comes to mind is that "you treated him like dirt").
>
>
>:-))) so i really like him :-)))
>
>but what's the problem, are we still friends ?
>so what ? how can it be than ?
>because different point of views has nothing to do with
>beeing friends or not.
>
>>This means that you do differentiate betweens friends and others, and you do
>>treat them differently.
>
>of course i do treat friends different than not friends.
>anybody does this, or. what i said was: i do differenciate between
>points and persons !
>and if one of my friends is e.g. scientologist i would fight him all my life.
>but not him. his ideas.
>
>
>>Not based on content, but on who they are and your
>>impression of them, regardless of what you say.
>
>look, if one of my friends or my enemies does something i call immoral,
>i make a line. and when he steps over the line, he will get my reaction.
>but the opponent is a human beeing. i do not hate him for what he is.
>only for what he does.
>hatred is an ill feeling. you hate somebody when you are not in balance.
>when you are in danger. hatred shows you: you are wrong.
>in the moment you understood about the points, you get better
>and there is no hatred anymore. and than you see the human-beeing again
>in the other guy.
>so if you would take anything personal, and would hate anybody who is
>against you, really, you would be permanent ill !
>you would be unable to live !
>therefore when jesus said you shall love your enemy, he just wanted to help
>you to get healthy.
>this life is about information. as long as you exchange information, with
>friends or with enemies, you love and you live.
>prejudices are NOT exchanging. conservatism. all the values that say:
>let anything the way it is. don't change.
>this is against life. against love.
>so if somebody has prejudices, but does not tell anybody, he will never
>change his prejudices! therefore speak out your prejudices.
>discuss about them. exchange ideas and information. discuss with your enemy.
>language is the vehicle to exchange information. exchanging
>means learning. and exchanging information is the reason all the universe has
>been done. we are big machines. and the only target we have is to exchange
>and to collect information. and why ? because it makes us wiser.
>if we have double-morals, and do NOT tell the other about what we think,
>if you smile at him and wish him death because you hate him, than you
>will not be able to learn. you will not change your prejudices. you will
>not love and be healthy but you will hatred, get paranoid and be unhealthy.
>
>Is written in the bible: love your enemy and you get wise. because if you
>love enemy, you exchange information, you talk and discuss.
>if you hate him, you do not talk, you do not exchange information, only
>you hate him.
>
>>And I do not mind you defending a friend. We need more of that in this world.
>>But, defending abusive actions from a friend seems like a mis-service to him.
>
>which abusive actions do you mean i have not criticized ?
>
>>JMO. I do not wish to get into a "fight" over it.
>
>word fights are important. people fighting in words will not kill themselves
>in real life. only if creatures have stopped discussing with each other,
>they will shoot each other. only if kids have not learned to use words,
>they will use weapons instead. word has much power.
>it was designed to discuss about. prejudice is not the problem, but not
>talking about prejudices. beeing different is not the problem but not
>talking about beeing different.
>
>
>>KarinsDad :)
>>
>>PS. I agree that a lot of programmers here fight for no good reason. I sometimes
>>do not understand it.
>
>yes . we should change this. we have words to express. we don't need
>to kill each other anymore. programmers can kill themselves on the chess board.
>but should have a drink together in peace and in a social group, sitting arround
>and sharing good moments.
>
>that was always the best from those events like paris, paderborn and aegon.
>that we shared the company of others. and learned by talking with each
>other. about their culture. their ideas. their programs. this was it.
>this was the reason i have done it. if this dies out, i get lost and have
>to replace computerchess with another vehicle to behave social.
>
>i guess most of us want the same. i always wonder why we fight so much,
>although we only want to be accepted by friends, other group members.
>this is the computerchess world. this is ours. we only have to accept it.
>all the others want the same.



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