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Subject: Re: penalty for opening H file of opponent when white and castled kingside

Author: Peter Fendrich

Date: 12:07:48 10/01/00

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On October 01, 2000 at 11:01:22, Brian Richardson wrote:

>On October 01, 2000 at 06:38:48, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On October 01, 2000 at 05:14:42, Mike Adams wrote:
>>
>>>On October 01, 2000 at 04:48:41, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 01, 2000 at 04:20:46, Mike Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>    I've noticed that pulsar thinks the doubled pawns are worth more than the
>>>>>danger of exposing its castle.  When its white and castles kingside this is
>>>>>particular dangerous when it opens the H file especially if the rook is sitting
>>>>>right there on H8.  I'm not as concerned about the F and G files because I think
>>>>>it can better defend these files but it can be very difficult to moblize the
>>>>>pieces to defend the H file.  Should i put a penalty in at 1.5 times the doubled
>>>>>pawn bonus?
>>>>
>>>>Chess is not a simple game.
>>>>There are cases when open h file is not dangerous  inspite of castling in the
>>>>king side and there are cases when open f file is dangerous.
>>>>
>>>>I think that it is impossible to answer your question because the right panelty
>>>>for open file should be dependent in the rest of the evaluation.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>
>>>yes but take a look at this position. pulsar is black and it plays Nxg3.
>>>
>>>[D] r1bq1rk1/ppp2p2/2n4p/3pP1pn/3P4/2P2NB1/P1P1B1PP/R2QK2R b KQ - 0 14
>>>
>>>
>>>I think there are some general rules that you dont open the H file with the
>>>opponents rook on H8.  Pulsar does have a king saftey function that tells it not
>>>to advance its castle side pawns but in some positions it seems to like doing
>>>that.  Maybe i'm not doing it right i gave it penalties similar to what the
>>>simple chess program does for advancing castled pawns but sometimes when it
>>>advances one pawn I think it gets easier for it to advance another if it thinks
>>>it messes with the opponents postion.  That is another area i'll have to look
>>>at.  With a check extension and deeper search pulsar, now over 2250 icc blitz,
>>>can get itself out of a lot of diffictulties but some things are just stupid and
>>>in this case i need to build into the evaluate that NxG3 followed by G4 are
>>>really bad.  The question is how to do that in a narrow sense that does not give
>>>it rules that are bad half the time.
>>>The move sequence of the game was: .. NxG3 HxG3 G4 Qg2 Gxf3 Qxh6 and of course
>>>its over.
>
>I assume you meant Qd2 (not g2)
>
>Getting it to see Gxf3 is bad is not easy to do. the material value
>>>of the Knight distorts the search and particulary with nullmove its hard to see
>>>at shallower depths like 5 or 6 even with check extensions. I'm trying the
>>>positon at Gxf3 on different versions of pulsar to see how much depth it takes
>>>to see that. So far with NUll move off it does the best and sees it at depth 6.
>
>I use the following penalties in Tinker (which may be somewhat extreme):
>
>KING_AH_NOPAWN_PENALTY	240 // Potential Trojan attack when king
>			    // castled and no A/H pawns.
>			    // asymmetric penalty must be enough
>			    // to postpone P x (N or B)
>KING_AH_ATTACK_PENALTY	120 // worse when opponent has 2xR + Q
>KING_AH_OPEN_PENALTY	480 // worse when file completely open
>
>It is asymetric in that these are the penalties for Tinker, but I divide by 4
>when Tinker is the attacker.  The "attack" and "open" penalties are cummulative
>with the nopawn penalty.  They are only added when the opponent has a rook or
>queen on the open A/H file.  The completely open is when the opponent has no
>pawns on the A/H file either.
>
>Tinker finds gxf3 to be bad (-420) at 6 ply (when forced, it is mate in 5
>afterwards).
>
>>>A freind said he tried it with crafty and crafty had a hard time seeing that
>>>Gxf3 is bad but I did not get to see that for myself.
>>
>>Crafty17.11 on a slow pentium200 has no problem to see in 3 seconds that gxf3 is
>>losing.
>>
>>Crafty17.11 has also no problem to see after 68 seconds with the same hardware
>>that the position after g4 Qd2 is bad for black(the score is 4.40 pawns for
>>white at depth 9 for the move h5.
>>
>>The tactical mistake is g4 and there is no reason to push the pawns forward.
>>
>>I do not think that Nxg3 is a good idea but after Nxg3 hxg3 Kg7 I do not see a
>>clear win for white.
>>
>>Uri

First I found these penalties rather high but what are your material evaluation
for one pawn?
//Peter



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