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Subject: Re: Are we ignoring basic math & statistics

Author: Mike Hood

Date: 03:57:29 10/25/01

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On October 24, 2001 at 22:03:49, Stephen A. Boak wrote:

>On October 24, 2001 at 11:43:18, Joshua Lee wrote:
>
>>For Starters If Deep Fritz were that Magical 2700+ number Like the SSDF Claims
>>Then Huebner wouldn't have Drawn Every Game of their 6 game Match
>>Secondly With All Do Respect No Commercial Program Has Played As Many Humans As
>>The Deep Thought/Blue Programs and Also The Number of Games Vs. Rating Average
>>Is Unequal (Not as many games as Deep Thought) If you Suggest that programs are
>>So Strong why Then Hasn't One of the Top Commercial's Put up so much Money as to
>>Play Against a Top 10 Opponent and Not a Couple of Unknowns?
>>
>>Tiger Didn't Beat All GM's and I don't think they were very Strong GM's someone
>>even mentioned that Tiger was Lost in One Position. That may not say Much but I
>>would Consider Rebel's Achievement or Deep Junior's Much More Impressive.
>>Rebel because of So many Games against Strong and well Known GM's Like Rhode and
>>Scherbakov  and Deep Junior for Beating GM Leko and Heubner , Drawing Everyone
>>else Besides Kramnik and Lautier.
>>
>>8 Games are not really enough and 1 Tournament By no means makes a Computer a GM
>>, They Can't Get The Title anyway, I would Like for this to be a possibility
>>Then maybe someone would Try for their program to get it and we could Look to
>>FIDE instead of SSDF .   I hate that the list should be lowered by upto 200
>>points even by their own estimate the link is on their page.
>>
>>Another thing Tiger's Rating On an 866 Compared to the Speed Difference of the
>>SSDF would Still Point to the SSDF's Given Rating for Tiger to be Wrong.
>>
>>Tiger is 2703 on a 1200
>>While 2788 against an average 2497FIDE On a Slower 866 Hmm Somebody is wrong
>>Either all those players were lying about their rating or Could it be that the
>>SSDF Is Off ...
>
>Curiousity leads me to pose some questions to thoughtful posters:
>
>Ever hear of natural variation?  Do you think that a 2497 player plays at 2497
>strength (whatever that means) on each move, and across each game, no matter the
>day or time or opponent or how well he is feeling?
>
>Ever hear of the uncertainty of measurement?  What is the level of confidence
>that a 2497 player is *actually* (whatever that means) a 2497 strength player?
>
>Can you accept random chance (natural variation) as a reason for occasional
>exceptional results for programs or humans?
>
>Can you accept that measurements are all subject to some level of uncertainty,
>some level of confidence less than certainty?
>
>If so, the above statement (prior poster) makes little sense.
>
>If not, I understand the dilemma and recommend a good introductory book on
>statistics.
>
>Opinions are welcome, I have no problem with them.  But do posters investigate
>and try to learn about the subject they comment on, or are they curious to
>discover what they may be missing in their view of things?
>
>Math is not a solution to everything.  It is an often useful tool.  It both has
>its uses and its limitations.  But to ignore it completely seems silly.  Do
>posters know they ignore some basic uses of math (often statistics) when they
>post?  Do they care?
>
>Just curious.
>
>--Steve

Thanks, Steve. I often have thoughts like yours when I read posts with titles
like "Beowulf is better than Deep Fritz on a 1.6 Ghz PC".

What is the statistical background of the ELO rating system? Are there any
recommendable URLs where I can read up on the subject? I've been told that if
two players are rated less than 1600 points apart there is a statistical chance
that the weaker player will beat the stronger player "occasionally", but I think
I'd have to catch Gary on a VERY bad day.




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