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Subject: comments on the game

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 16:14:23 06/04/02

Go up one level in this thread


On June 04, 2002 at 19:09:56, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

I showed this game yesterday to 1 GM and 1 IM.

Both thought diep played a beginner rated 1500.

When i told them it was a program they were amazed. they
were sure the programmer had played himself initially.

>On June 04, 2002 at 13:59:46, Dann Corbit wrote:
>
>a few days ago ICSVN2:
>Tiger - DIEP   0-1 :
>
>See the score jumps when the preprocessor of the tiger
>makes mistakes. Especially watch how knowledgeable tiger is
>when score jumps after queen exchange :)
>
>  1   e2-e4    (1:30:00,1:30:00)
>  1.. c7-c5    (1:30:00,1:29:59)  book
>  2   Ng1-f3   (1:29:37,1:29:59)
>  2.. d7-d6    (1:29:37,1:29:59)  book
>  3   d2-d4    (1:29:29,1:29:59)
>  3.. c5xd4    (1:29:29,1:29:59)  book
>  4   Nf3xd4   (1:29:17,1:29:59)
>  4.. Ng8-f6   (1:29:17,1:29:59)  book
>  5   Nb1-c3   (1:29:06,1:29:59)
>  5.. a7-a6    (1:29:06,1:29:59)  book
>  6   Bc1-g5   (1:28:53,1:29:59)
>  6.. e7-e6    (1:28:53,1:29:59)  book
>  7   f2-f4    (1:28:38,1:29:59)
>  7.. Qd8-b6   (1:28:38,1:29:58)  book
>  8   Qd1-d2   (1:28:29,1:29:58)
>  8.. Qb6xb2   (1:28:29,1:29:58)  book
>  9   Ra1-b1   (1:28:17,1:29:58)
>  9.. Qb2-a3   (1:28:17,1:29:58)  book
> 10   f4-f5    (1:28:04,1:29:58)
> 10.. Nb8-c6   (1:28:04,1:29:58)  book
> 11   f5xe6    (1:27:53,1:29:58)
> 11.. f7xe6    (1:27:53,1:29:58)  book
> 12   Nd4xc6   (1:27:43,1:29:58)
> 12.. b7xc6    (1:27:43,1:29:58)  book
> 13   e4-e5    (1:27:32,1:29:58)
> 13.. Nf6-d5   (1:27:32,1:29:58)  book
> 14   Nc3xd5   (1:27:07,1:29:58)
> 14.. c6xd5    (1:27:07,1:29:58)  book
> 15   Bf1-e2   (1:26:56,1:29:58)
> 15.. d6xe5    (1:26:56,1:29:58)  book
> 16   O-O      (1:26:38,1:29:58)
> 16.. Ra8-a7   (1:26:38,1:29:58)  book
> 17   c2-c4    (1:26:27,1:29:58)
> 17.. Qa3-c5   (1:26:27,1:29:58)  book
> 18   Kg1-h1   (1:26:16,1:29:58)
> 18.. d5-d4    (1:26:16,1:29:57)  book
> 19   Be2-h5   (1:26:05,1:29:57)
> 19.. g7-g6    (1:26:05,1:29:57)  book
> 20   Bh5-d1   (1:25:52,1:29:57)
> 20.. Bf8-e7   (1:25:52,1:29:57)  book
> 21   Bd1-a4   (1:25:41,1:29:57)
> 21.. Ke8-d8   (1:25:41,1:29:57)  book
> 22   Rf1-f7   (1:25:30,1:29:57)
> 22.. h7-h6    (1:25:30,1:29:57)  book
> 23   Bg5xh6   (1:25:19,1:29:57)
> 23.. e5-e4    (1:25:19,1:29:57)  book
> 24   Bh6-e3   (1:25:05,1:29:57)
> 24.. e6-e5    (1:25:05,1:29:57)  book
> 25   Be3-g5   (1:24:54,1:29:57)
> 25.. e4-e3    (1:24:54,1:29:57)  book
> 26   Bg5xe3   (1:24:40,1:29:57)
> 26.. Rh8-h5   (1:24:40,1:29:57)  book
> 27   Rf7-g7   (1:24:27,1:29:57)
> 27.. Ra7-b7   (1:24:27,1:24:57)  0.00 11 39895611 04:47 0 0 38318529 (2687471)
>11 0.004 Ra7-b7 Rb1-e1 Bc8-e6 Ba4-d1 Rh5-f5 Bd1-g4 Be6xc4 Bg4xf5 g6xf5 Be3-g5
>e5-e4 Bg5xe7 Rb7xe7
> 28   Rb1-b3   (1:21:28,1:24:57)
> 28.. Rh5-f5   (1:21:28,1:22:00)  0.12 11 23910654 01:42 0 0 13477440 (3049262)
>10 0.116 Rh5-f5 Rg7xg6 Rf5-f1 Be3-g1 Rb7-b4 Rb3xb4 Qc5xb4 Qd2xb4 Be7xb4 Ba4-c2
>Rf1-a1 Rg6-b6
> 29   Rg7-g8   (1:16:26,1:22:00)
> 29.. Rf5-f8   (1:16:26,1:19:09)  0.13 12 24121930 01:30 0 0 12589189 (2391315)
>11 0.127 Rf5-f8 Rg8xg6 Rb7-c7 Be3-g1 Qc5xc4 Qd2-a5 Qc4-c5 Qa5-e1 Qc5-d5 Rb3-b8
>Be7-d6 Ba4-b3 Qd5-c5
> 30   Rg8xf8   (1:16:06,1:19:09)
> 30.. Be7xf8   (1:16:06,1:16:24)  0.37 13 25948142 02:27 0 0 23257638 (2576274)
>12 0.371 Be7xf8 Be3-g5 Bf8-e7 Bg5xe7 Rb7xe7 Qd2-f2 Kd8-c7 Qf2-f6 Re7-e6 Qf6-g7
>Qc5-e7 Qg7-h8 Re6-f6 Rb3-f3 Bc8-f5
> 31   Be3-g5   (1:11:51,1:16:24)
> 31.. Bf8-e7   (1:11:51,1:16:24)  0.52 13 39894064 01:16 0 0 11800362 (5578047)
>12 0.515 Bf8-e7 h2-h4 Rb7-c7 Qd2-d3 Bc8-f5 Qd3-g3 Kd8-c8 Bg5xe7 Rc7xe7 Qg3-f3
>e5-e4 Qf3-f4
> 32   Bg5xe7   (1:07:08,1:16:24)
> 32.. Rb7xe7   (1:07:08,1:13:45)  0.61 13 24197741 00:00 0 0 108 (0) 12 0.610
>Rb7xe7 Qd2-f2 Kd8-c7 Qf2-f8 e5-e4 Rb3-b1 e4-e3 Ba4-c2 Bc8-f5 Bc2xf5 g6xf5
> 33   Qd2-h6   (1:04:56,1:13:45)
> 33.. Re7-f7   (1:04:56,1:11:42)  0.63 12 17948195 00:26 0 0 3900453 (45107) 11
>0.626 Re7-f7 h2-h3 Rf7-f6 Rb3-b1 e5-e4 Qh6-h4 Qc5-e7 Qh4-h8 Kd8-c7 Rb1-d1 Qe7-e5
>Ba4-e8
> 34   Qh6-h8   (1:00:41,1:11:42)
> 34.. Qc5-f8   (1:00:41,1:09:27)  1.56 13 21226849 01:30 0 0 14670665 (1922994)
>13 1.561 Qc5-f8 Qh8-h4 Kd8-c7 h2-h3 Rf7-f1 Kh1-h2 Qf8-f4 Qh4xf4 Rf1xf4 Rb3-g3
>Bc8-f5 Rg3-f3 Rf4xf3 g2xf3 Bf5-e6 Ba4-b3 Be6-f5 Kh2-g3 Kc7-c6
> 35   Qh8-h4   (0:47:58,1:09:27)
> 35.. Kd8-c7   (0:47:58,1:09:27)  2.15 16 123514109 07:05 0 0 68593841 (2067996)
>15 2.154 Kd8-c7 h2-h3 Rf7-f1 Kh1-h2 Qf8-f4 Qh4xf4 Rf1xf4 Ba4-e8 Bc8-f5 Rb3-b2
>d4-d3 g2-g4 Rf4xc4 g4xf5 Rc4-c2 Rb2xc2 d3xc2
> 36   h2-h3    (0:43:33,1:09:27)
> 36.. Rf7-f1+  (0:43:33,1:09:27)  2.84 15 47147967 02:57 0 0 33249999 (4832442)
>15 2.843 Rf7-f1 Kh1-h2 Qf8-f4 Qh4xf4 Rf1xf4 Kh2-g3 Bc8-f5 Rb3-b2 Rf4-f1 Kg3-h4
>Rf1-c1 Ba4-b3 Kc7-d6 Kh4-g5 e5-e4 g2-g4 Rc1-g1
> 37   Kh1-h2   (0:43:26,1:09:27)
> 37.. Qf8-f4+  (0:43:26,1:07:39)  2.84 15 18434211 00:00 0 0 70 (0) 15 2.843
>Qf8-f4 Qh4xf4 Rf1xf4 Kh2-g3 Bc8-f5 Rb3-b2 Rf4-f1 Kg3-h4 Rf1-c1 Ba4-b3 Kc7-d6
>Kh4-g5 e5-e4 g2-g4 Rc1-g1
> 38   Qh4xf4   (0:41:54,1:07:39)
> 38.. Rf1xf4   (0:41:54,1:07:18)  2.84 14 23358520 00:00 0 0 35 (0) 13 2.843
>Rf1xf4 Kh2-g3 Bc8-f5 Rb3-b2 Rf4-f1 Kg3-h4 Rf1-c1 Ba4-b3 Kc7-d6 Kh4-g5 e5-e4
>g2-g4
> 39   Kh2-g3   (0:39:49,1:07:18)
> 39.. Bc8-f5   (0:39:49,1:07:18)  3.44 14 26955263 01:28 0 0 19234463 (3150144)
>13 3.442 Bc8-f5 Rb3-b2 g6-g5 Kg3-h2 d4-d3 Ba4-b3 e5-e4 g2-g3 e4-e3 g3xf4 e3-e2
>Rb2-b1 d3-d2
> 40   Rb3-f3   (0:38:24,1:07:18)
> 40.. Rf4xf3+  (0:38:24,1:05:26)  3.26 14 27255883 01:37 0 0 23804204 (4726483)
>13 3.263 Rf4xf3 g2xf3 Kc7-d6 Ba4-e8 g6-g5 Be8-f7 Kd6-c5 Bf7-d5 d4-d3 Kg3-f2
>Kc5-d4 Kf2-e1 Kd4-e3 Bd5-b7
> 41   g2xf3    (0:32:01,1:05:26)
> 41.. Kc7-d6   (0:32:01,1:05:26)  3.82 15 91982238 04:09 0 0 59130318 (4967641)
>15 3.816 Kc7-d6 Ba4-e8 g6-g5 h3-h4 g5xh4 Kg3xh4 Bf5-c2 Kh4-g3 d4-d3 Be8-g6
>Bc2-b1 Kg3-f2 d3-d2 Kf2-e2 d2-d1Q Ke2xd1
> 42   Ba4-e8   (0:30:32,1:05:26)
> 42.. g6-g5    (0:30:32,1:05:06)  3.82 14 10482160 00:00 0 0 33 (0) 13 3.816
>g6-g5 h3-h4 g5xh4 Kg3xh4 Bf5-c2 Kh4-g3 d4-d3 Be8-g6 Bc2-b1 Kg3-f2 d3-d2 Kf2-e2
> 43   Be8-f7   (0:28:06,1:05:06)
> 43.. Kd6-c5   (0:28:06,1:03:17)  4.04 14 25498237 01:27 0 0 20994560 (1482635)
>14 4.039 Kd6-c5 Kg3-f2 Bf5xh3 Kf2-e1 d4-d3 Ke1-d2 Kc5-d4 Bf7-g6 g5-g4 f3xg4
>e5-e4 Bg6xe4 Kd4xe4 g4-g5
> 44   Kg3-f2   (0:23:54,1:03:17)
> 44.. Kc5-b4   (0:23:54,1:03:17)  4.67 15 56521681 02:13 0 0 30160797 (1228444)
>14 4.667 Kc5-b4 Bf7-g8 Bf5xh3 Kf2-e1 a6-a5 Bg8-f7 a5-a4 c4-c5 Bh3-d7 Ke1-f2
>a4-a3 c5-c6 Bd7xc6 Bf7-g6
> 45   Bf7-g8   (0:22:35,1:03:17)
> 45.. Bf5xh3   (0:22:35,1:02:51)  5.38 15 22200205 00:09 0 0 2131680 (4214) 14
>5.381 Bf5xh3 Bg8-d5 Bh3-f5 Bd5-f7 g5-g4 f3xg4 Bf5xg4 Bf7-d5 d4-d3 Kf2-e3 Kb4-c3
>c4-c5 d3-d2 Bd5-b3 a6-a5 c5-c6 a5-a4 Bb3xa4
> 46   Kf2-e1   (0:22:08,1:02:51)
> 46.. Kb4-c3   (0:22:08,1:01:06)  5.75 15 20654992 00:51 0 0 10490687 (926541)
>14 5.751 Kb4-c3 c4-c5 d4-d3 Bg8-b3 g5-g4 Ke1-f2 g4xf3 Kf2xf3 Kc3-d4 c5-c6 e5-e4
>Kf3-g3 Bh3-f5 Kg3-f4 Bf5-c8 Bb3-d1 a6-a5 a2-a3 e4-e3 Kf4-f3 Bc8-h3 a3-a4
> 47   c4-c5    (0:17:45,1:01:06)
> 47.. d4-d3    (0:17:45,1:01:06)  5.90 15 47685619 04:18 0 0 46835634 (8356273)
>15 5.896 d4-d3 Ke1-f2 Bh3-d7 Bg8-b3 Kc3-d4 Bb3-d1 g5-g4 f3xg4 e5-e4 a2-a3 e4-e3
>Kf2-f1 Bd7-b5 g4-g5 e3-e2 Bd1xe2 d3xe2 Kf1-f2 Kd4xc5
> 48   Ke1-f2   (0:17:02,1:01:06)
> 48.. Bh3-d7   (0:17:02,1:00:08)  6.51 15 13310376 00:29 0 0 5516078 (1125736)
>14 6.506 Bh3-d7 Bg8-b3 a6-a5 Bb3-d5 d3-d2 Bd5-b3 a5-a4 Bb3xa4 Bd7xa4 c5-c6
>d2-d1Q c6-c7 Qd1-d2 Kf2-f1 Qd2xa2 c7-c8Q Qa2-c4 Qc8xc4 Kc3xc4
> 49   Bg8-d5   (0:16:00,1:00:08)
> 49.. d3-d2    (0:16:00,0:58:28)  9.19 14 15847088 01:13 0 0 11744830 (2673596)
>13 9.194 d3-d2 Bd5-b3 Kc3-b2 Kf2-e3 Kb2-c1 Ke3-f2 a6-a5 a2-a4 Bd7-e6 Bb3xe6
>d2-d1Q c5-c6 Qd1-c2 Kf2-g3 Qc2xc6 Be6-b3 Kc1-b2
> 50   Bd5-b3   (0:15:40,0:58:28)
> 50.. Kc3-b2   (0:15:40,0:57:09)  9.31 14 11617427 01:10 0 0 10665309 (367625)
>14 9.315 Kc3-b2 Kf2-e3 Kb2-c1 Ke3-f2 a6-a5 a2-a4 Bd7-e6 Bb3xe6 d2-d1Q c5-c6
>Qd1-c2 Kf2-g3 Qc2xc6 Be6-b3 Kc1-b2 Bb3-d1
> 51   Kf2-e3   (0:15:25,0:57:09)
> 51.. Kb2-c1   (0:15:25,0:55:49)  9.31 14 14707063 00:00 0 0 48 (0) 13 9.315
>Kb2-c1 Ke3-f2 a6-a5 a2-a4 Bd7-e6 Bb3xe6 d2-d1Q c5-c6 Qd1-c2 Kf2-g3 Qc2xc6 Be6-b3
>Kc1-b2 Bb3-d1
> 52   Ke3-e4   (0:15:14,0:55:49)
> 52.. a6-a5    (0:15:14,0:54:16)  9.50 12 10953611 00:40 0 0 5399812 (1265495)
>11 9.495 a6-a5 a2-a4 Bd7-c6 Bb3-d5 d2-d1Q Bd5xc6 g5-g4 Bc6-e8 g4xf3 Be8-g6
>Qd1xa4 Ke4-e3 Kc1-b2 c5-c6
>
>
>
>>On June 04, 2002 at 10:49:00, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On June 04, 2002 at 08:54:57, José Carlos wrote:
>>>
>>>What i read in Dann's words is he is more believing in search
>>>rather than the knowledge. If that's the case then i think he is
>>>wrong.
>>
>>Chess Tiger shows that search *IS* knowledge.  However, it is a different kind
>>of knowledge.
>>
>>There will always be ways to improve the search.  There will always be ways to
>>improve the eval.  Both ways are paths to a better program.  To give up one
>>either path forever means that your program is not as good as it could be.
>>
>>Optimze the path.  Optimize the eval.  Optimize the path.  Optimize the eval.
>>
>>Maybe you are better at optimization of the evaluation function.  Quite frankly,
>>most programmers do not have your chess knowledge.  If anything, they should
>>spend more energy in the search.  After all, how can they inject a 2500 ELO
>>evaluation into their program if they cannot play at 2500?  On the other hand,
>>writing a better algorithm has a lot of possibilities.  So even someone who is
>>not a chess genius can do that.
>>
>>Of course, the chess knowledge can be gleaned from somewhere else (chess books,
>>friends who are GM's -- whatever).
>>
>>My point is that to stop development in any dimention is a mistake.  There will
>>always be room for improvement until the program is perfect.  Since it will
>>never be perfect, we won't run out of things to do.
>>
>>[snip]



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