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Subject: Re: What made Deep blue good? What will make programs much better now?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 20:22:13 07/08/02

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On July 08, 2002 at 13:50:18, Sune Fischer wrote:

>On July 08, 2002 at 13:27:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On July 08, 2002 at 12:48:58, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>
>>>On July 08, 2002 at 11:34:36, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>>I too am a DB fan.  Just like Bob.
>>>>>
>>>>>But I actually agree with you here.  I don't think DB did anything
>>>>>*spectacular*.
>>>>
>>>>I totally disagree.  Their speed _was_ "spectacular".  And that was _the_
>>>>point of Deep Blue, after all.  Not the point everyone _wants_ to be the
>>>>point of deep blue, but _the point_ the team developed over 10 years...
>>>>
>>>
>>>Here is a crazy thought, why not simulate DB?
>>>Given all the papers, I think it should be possible to modify Craft to use the
>>>same eval and extensions. We turn off hashing, nullmove, SEE and whatever DB
>>>didn't have. Then we find a slow machine for Tiger and a super fast one for
>>>Crafty, so Crafty (in DB-mode) has a 200 nps fold advantage.
>>>
>>>Ok lot of work, but seems this is the never ending story :)
>>>
>>>-S.
>>
>>
>>This would be great if we had some of the DB guys helping.  Unfortunately,
>>while they revealed a lot about various parts of DB, there is no single
>>comprehensive source paper to use as a reference.  IE what are those 8,000
>>unique eval terms in DB (some of those terms actually represent a matrix with
>>multiple values so it is actually more complex than that)?  Ditto for some of
>>their search algorithms.  They have given lots of 'hints' about things, but
>>significant implementation details are not available.
>>
>>IE something like trying to build a F-1 by looking at it run around the track.
>>There are _significant_ details that are not readily apparent from such
>>observations...
>
>Ahh, slight unforeseen problem. ;)
>Maybe you can get a copy of the source, it's not like Hsu has a big use for it
>anymore, unless he patented it or plans to some day revive the old legend?
>(he could always edit out the "top secret" parts :)
>
>I'm not even sure such a test would settle the discussion, but at least we would
>have an active open source playing machine to work with.
>
>-S.


The source would get us the search for the first 2/3 of the plies in the
tree.  But what about the hardware search.  And the hardware evaluation?

Big chunks are missing.  I don't want to look at circuit schematics to
try to discern evaluation operations.  :)



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