Author: Chris Carson
Date: 13:10:46 07/09/02
Go up one level in this thread
On July 09, 2002 at 15:26:58, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On July 09, 2002 at 13:38:03, Chris Carson wrote: > >>On July 09, 2002 at 13:27:31, Chris Carson wrote: >> >>>On July 09, 2002 at 12:51:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On July 09, 2002 at 07:35:55, Chris Carson wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 08, 2002 at 23:18:00, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On July 08, 2002 at 14:49:22, Chris Carson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On July 08, 2002 at 14:26:22, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On July 08, 2002 at 12:36:01, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On July 08, 2002 at 12:15:06, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On July 08, 2002 at 11:32:38, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On July 08, 2002 at 00:32:42, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On July 06, 2002 at 20:15:06, stuart taylor wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I suspect that search may see that the right move help to push the opponent king >>>>>>>>>>>>>>closer to the corner relative to the wrong moves and it may be enough. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, that looks like the best thing to try and work on, doesn't it? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>If not, can I ask two questions?: >>>>>>>>>>>>>1)What should be done during the near future to push computer elo forward as >>>>>>>>>>>>>much as possible? >>>>>>>>>>>>>2)If Deeper blue was really much stronger than todays tops, what was that due >>>>>>>>>>>>>to? Better long-term planning? Seeing deeper? >>>>>>>>>>>>>S.Taylor >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Huge speed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>It was doing most things worse than the best micro programs, but it was doing it >>>>>>>>>>>>so fast that it was eventually stronger. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Hum... Let me rephrase for the sensitive people out there. There was nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>Deep Blue did better than the best micro programs. But it was so fast that it >>>>>>>>>>>>allowed it to hide its defficiencies. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Shit. That's not very diplomatic either. Let's try again: Deep Blue was build >>>>>>>>>>>>around a concept outdated by 2 decades but fortunately it was so fast that >>>>>>>>>>>>nobody noticed until their creators published their paper. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Oops... OK, once again: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Bob likes Deep Blue a lot, and that should be a reason good enough to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>you that it was well designed. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Christophe ;-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Er... excepting one game by Fritz in 1995, when was the last time you saw >>>>>>>>>>>any micro beat any predecessor of deep blue? When was the last time _your_ >>>>>>>>>>>program beat or drew them? Etc... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Results speak far louder than prejudice... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Results can only prove that they were better than their opponents but this is >>>>>>>>>>not the question. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>That is the problem. That was _the_ question. But since the answer is >>>>>>>>>clearly known, everybody wants to change the question to something that would >>>>>>>>>try to make deep blue look "less" than what it really was. But it was >>>>>>>>>unbeatable, considering that it lost to one micro in almost 10 years of >>>>>>>>>competition. Nobody _else_ has ever come close to that kind of dominance. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I think it funny that _now_ the question becomes "was their search optimal"? >>>>>>>>>Implying that current micros _are_. Which is a joke. Both have enough holes >>>>>>>>>to supply a swiss cheese factory for years. The concept of "optimal" is a >>>>>>>>>joke. The concept of "results" is the only scientific way to measure the >>>>>>>>>programs against each other. The rest is only subjective opinion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>There has been a big smoke fog spread around Deep Blue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>At the time of the Kasparov match, we have been told that: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1) it was extremely fast. >>>>>>>>2) it had much more knowledge than any other program around. >>>>>>>>3) it was using some revolutionnary search techniques. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Now that we are able to see more clearly what it was, it turns out that: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1) its superiority came from its speed. >>>>>>>>2) the rest was nothing new, and we are still trying to figure out what part was >>>>>>>>actually superior to what the best micro programs are doing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I don't think that noticing the above is against the interest of science. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Christophe >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I will be happy to publish the steps to pass muster for human (including GM's) >>>>>>>experiments. One quick note is that any "scientific" test to be valid must be >>>>>>>reliable/published so that it can be shown to be repeatable by an independant >>>>>>>scientist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The DB project was a secret thing, it was very nice " h/w technology", but I do >>>>>>>not consider much about DB to be related to science. I am not sure the DB >>>>>>>results are reliable, I would expect significantly different results if the >>>>>>>Human GM played a few more game (say 100 prep like the 2700 GM had against Rebel >>>>>>>recently). I expect DB 1996/97 would get beat by the PC's today in a "true" >>>>>>>double blind match/tournament. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>You were doing OK until that last sentence. Do you _really_ think you could >>>>>>take _any_ program from 1997, run it at 200M nodes per second, and that program >>>>>>would lose to today's micro programs at 1M nodes per second. I _hope_ you don't >>>>>>believe that. And yet we _know_ that DB 97 was certainly stronger than any >>>>>>1997 micro, because deep thought was stronger than any micro of its time and >>>>>>DB took a quantum leap 100X faster than Deep Thought. >>>>> >>>>>Read my last statement again. I said "PC's today", not programs from 97. Yes I >>>>>do believe that in a double blind match/tournament the top "PC's (single and >>>>>multi-processor chess programs" would beat DB 96/97. I would add that the >>>>>Programmers for Fritz, Junior, Tiger, Hiarcs, Shredder, Rebel would have to be >>>>>included and independant arbiter used. >>>>> >>>>>I also agree with Uri's reply: >>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?239295 >>>> >>>> >>>>Reread what _I_ said. >>>> >>>>"if you take _any_ PC program from 1997, and magically find hardware fast enough >>>>to make it run at 200M nodes per second, then according to your above statement, >>>>you _must_ believe that today's micros would smash that PC in your 'double- >>>>blind' match". >>>> >>>>I don't believe that for a minute. And since DB 97 was stronger than any >>>>micro in 1997, you must believe that today's micros are far superior to 1997's >>>>micros, based solely on software. That is a crock. Today's programs are >>>>stronger. But not a _lot_ stronger, if you run 1997 vs today's programs on >>>>equal hardware. Hardware is a _lot_ of the strength gain. And DB had a _lot_ >>>>of strength. I don't believe today's programs could beat a 1992 micro program >>>>if it were running at 200M nodes per second. That is simply too large a time >>>>handicap and the tactics will rule the game. >>> >>>(1) What was the specific W L D record for Deep Blue 95 against the 1995 >>>programs/hw? It was 1 win 1 loss 1 Draw. (2) What was it for Deep Thought W L >>>D against the 1997 programs/hw? 0 wins 0 loss 0 draw. Deep Thought did not >>>play any of the 1997 pc programs. I do not see actual results to support your >>>statements. Please post the games and results for Deep Blue or Deep Thought >>>against the 1997 programs. >>> >>>Yes, the Programs today on today's hardware would smash the programs that Deep >>>Thought beat in 1989 on 1989 hardware. In 1989 DT beat Rebel X and Fidelity X >>>on 1989 harware, so what, big deal. I am sure any of the top programs on todays >>>hardware would have no problem winning. >>> >>>I do not see any "results" based evidence to support the statement that DB 96/97 >>>or Deep Thought (any year) was stonger than programs in 1997. I only hear that >>>Deep Thought beat two programs in 1989 and DB was 100 times faster. The >>>programs/hw in 1997 were close to DB96/97 and the programs today are better >>>than DB 96/97. >> >>I never said that the 1997 programs needed to be run at 200mnps. You said that. >> I think the 1997 programs were close to DB, not that far behind. 1997 version >>of Rebel on todays fastest single AMD would beat DB 96/97 in my opinion. DB >>96/97 needed the blazing speed, not the commercials. The HW/SW today would beat >>DB 96/97. > > >I didn't say you said _anything_ I clearly said that if you took a 1997 >program, and put it on "magic hardware" do you _really_ think that a program >/ machine from today would beat it, if this "magic hardware" ran the 1997 >program at 200M nodes per second? I don't think today's program would stand >even a small chance of winning any significant numbers of games at that time >handicap. > >And that time handicap is _exactly_ what 1997 DB would hold over _any_ program >of today on today's hardware... DB nps does not equal Rebel nps or Tiger nps or Fritz nps or ... You can not compare nps to nps. I look at results and there are no games (except human vs computers) for comparison.
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