Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:54:16 10/02/02
Go up one level in this thread
On October 02, 2002 at 18:35:06, Uri Blass wrote: >On October 02, 2002 at 16:22:44, Hartmut Woldeit wrote: > >>On October 02, 2002 at 14:07:59, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On October 02, 2002 at 13:02:08, Hartmut Woldeit wrote: >>> >>>>Hallo, >>>> >>>>it's no new information that Crafty1714 is one of the best Crafty-versions. >>>>Better than most of his followers. >>> >>>I do not know it. >>>I only know that there is not big difference and you need hundreds of games to >>>prove. >> >>Hallo Uri, >> >>I do not know "hundred of games". I'm watching engine-engine-games. > >I did not watch games of Crafty versions but saying that Crafty17.14 is clearly >better than later crafty seems to me an insult to Bob who continue to work on >crafty. Note that I don't take it as an insult. I've heard this (and other such things) more than once. The problem is that it is very difficult to play two programs against each other and conclude which is best. Often the result will be different than if each of the programs is played against a group of _other_ programs... I have played 17.x vs 18.15 and I noticed that it won more than it lost (the 17.14 version mentioned). However, I then played them _both_ on ICC and noticed very little difference against other computers, with 18.x doing just a little bit better. however, against humans, 18.x was significantly better, most likely the result of endgame knowledge that has been added... It is just another example of how hard it is to say X is better than Y beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you only want to play X vs Y then it is not so hard to show that. But if you want to compare X to Y in _other_ ways, it becomes much messier... > >There can be a small difference but I do not believe that a big negative >difference can happen when Bob does not find it. > >In order to be convinced in small negative difference you need hundreds and >maybe thousands of games. > >I know that Bob add knowledge to Crafty so I simply cannot believe that it is >significantly worse. In general, I agree. However, part of the knowledge comes with a cost. And I could imagine cases where the cost in speed hurts more when the knowledge is not needed because of the opponent's playing style.... > >A big bug can happen in a version but I do not believe that it can stay for a >lot of time without correction so big bugs in Crafty1715 were probably fixed >later. > >>I see when an engine-creator would to have give up his previous good >>selfestimastion. (Does the author of "Genesis" still tells at his hp his engine >>is ~22oo Elo...?). > >I think that the rating of programs is dependent on the hardware and the time >control and the question if the human opponents are prepared to play anti >computer. > >I believe that genesis can achieve 2200 in the right conditions. >> >>Watching several games, I know if an an engine-version became better or not. >> >>You said that "you do not know it", but saying "there is not big >>difference...". >> >>Contradictio in adjecto? > >No > >I know based on rating lists that there is a no big difference. >I do not know which version is better. > >> >>Or did you mean that Crafty1714 is unknown to you? > >I may look at numbers again(I remember that Sarah has lot of Crafty in her >rating list but I do not remember now if 1714 is one of them. > >I am going to look for her posts in the last week and find it in a few minutes. > >> >>Best regards and wish of peace to Israel, > >I also hope for peace. > >Uri
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