Author: Kurt Utzinger
Date: 13:37:59 03/26/03
Go up one level in this thread
On March 26, 2003 at 16:22:47, Peter Berger wrote: >On March 26, 2003 at 15:27:39, Kurt Utzinger wrote: > >>On March 26, 2003 at 06:28:52, Peter Berger wrote: >> >>>These can be tough or very easy depending on engine - some engines seem to know >>>too much here. They are also interesting for humans I think. >>> >>>6k1/p4p2/6p1/1P2p2p/4q2P/4Q1P1/P4P2/6K1 b - - 0 1 >>> >>>1..Qxe3! wins for black. >> >> Hi Peter >> Do you really think that in these positons it is a matter of knowledge >> for chess programs? > >Yes, I do - see below. > > >I doubt and assume it's simply a matter of search and >> calculation. > >This depends on the time availlable. You not only want to solve it, but you want >to solve it fast enough. > > >>We can see this from analysis with Rebel 12 Beta1. In the first >> position it's easy to see for the program that white will lose a pawn. In >> the second position, Rebel needs 9m2s to come to a slightly negative >> evaluation for ... Qxe3? > >See? Hi Peter Sorry, I forgot to post the analysis of Rebel 12 Beta2 for the first position where the program sees an win within some seconds only. This made me think that it's not a question of chess knowledge. Kurt Thinking.... +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ End 1 - Pos 1 8 | | | | | | | *K| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 00:00:00 00:00:00 7 | *p| | | | | *p| | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 6 | | | | | | | *p| | Time infinite +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Hash 28 Mb 5 | | p | | | *p| | | *p| Engine Beta 1 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Personality beta1.eng 4 | | | | | *Q| | | p | anti-GM Off +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Tactics Off 3 | | | | | Q | | p | | Bluff Chess Off +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Style Normal 2 | p | | | | | p | | | Strength Strongest +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Search Nullmove 1 | | | | | | | K | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ a b c d e f g h 6k1/p4p2/6p1/1P2p2p/4q2P/4Q1P1/P4P2/6K1 b - - [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "??.??.????"] [Round "?"] [White "Pos 1"] [Black "End 1"] [Result "*"] [WhiteElo "?"] [BlackElo "?"] [FEN "6k1/p4p2/6p1/1P2p2p/4q2P/4Q1P1/P4P2/6K1 b - - 0 1"] 1..* 00:00:00 1.00 0.18 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 00:00:00 2.00 0.19 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 00:00:00 3.00 0.21 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 f5 3.Kf2 Kg7 4.a4 Kf7 00:00:00 4.00 0.21 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 f5 3.Kf2 Kg7 4.a4 Kf7 00:00:00 5.00 0.18 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 f5 3.Kf2 Kf7 4.a4 Ke6 5.a5 Kd5 6.Kf3 (0) 00:00:00 6.00 0.18 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 f5 3.Kf2 Kf7 4.a4 e4 5.a5 f4 (0) 00:00:00 7.00 0.21 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6 5.Ke2 f5 6.Kd3 Kc5 (0) 00:00:00 8.00 0.21 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6 5.Ke2 f5 6.Kd3 Kc5 (0) 00:00:01 9.00 0.39 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6 5.g4 hxg4 6.Kxg4 f6 7.h5 f5 8.Kg5 gxh5 9.Kxh5 Kd5 10.a3 (0) 00:00:01 10.00 0.39 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6 5.g4 hxg4 6.Kxg4 f6 7.h5 f5 8.Kg5 gxh5 9.Kxh5 Kd5 10.a3 (1) 00:00:02 11.00 1.00 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6 5.a5 f6 6.e4 Kc5 7.b6 axb6 8.a6 (1) 00:00:03 12.00 1.49 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6 5.g4 hxg4 6.Kxg4 Kd5 7.Kg5 Ke4 8.Kf6 Kxe3 9.Kxe5 f5 10.Kd5 f4 11.Kc4 (2) 00:00:06 13.00 1.80 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6 5.a5 f6 6.Ke2 Kc5 7.b6 axb6 8.a6 Kc6 9.Kd3 b5 10.Kc3 Kb6 (4) 00:00:11 14.00 1.85 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kg2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6 5.a5 Kc5 6.b6 axb6 7.a6 Kc6 8.Kf2 b5 9.Ke2 b4 (10) 00:00:20 15.00 2.05 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.a4 Kd6 5.a5 Kc5 6.b6 axb6 7.axb6 Kxb6 8.Ke2 e4 9.Kd2 f6 10.Kc3 (15) 00:00:38 16.00 2.09 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6 5.Ke4 f6 6.Kd3 Kc5 7.Ke4 Kc4 8.a3 Kc5 9.b6 axb6 10.Kd3 f5 11.e4 (30) 00:01:38 17.00 2.14 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Kf2 Ke7 4.Kf3 Kd6 5.Ke4 f6 6.Kd3 Kc5 7.b6 axb6 8.Kc3 f5 (71) Positions : 210.914.796 Nodes per second : 737.464 Extensions (checks) : 0 (0%) Extensions (captures) : 0 (0%) Extensions (king safety) : 0 (0%) Extensions (on depth) : 0 (0%) Extensions (remaining) : 0 (0%) Extensions (total) : 0 (0%) Hash Table : 22.784.670 9.996.066 (100%) Average depth : 23 Deepest depth : 59 > >> >>00:09:02 15.00 -0.15 1..Qxe3 2.fxe3 Kf8 3.Ke2 Ke7 4.Kd3 Ke6 >> 5.Kc4 f6 6.a3 g5 7.a4 Kd6 8.a5 g4 9.e4 (531) >> > >Crafty might be overtuned for this motive. But if Rebel can't avoid Qxe3 in 9 >minutes trading in a completely lost pawnending it certainly has too little >knowledge about outside passed pawns here. If it could search deep enough to see >the trouble tactically it wouldn't matter. > >In fact the Rebel evaluation came as a very big surprise for me- it would lose >this position at tournament time control! > > >Everything in my very humble opinion - I am a user, not a chessprogrammer. > >Peter
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