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Subject: Re: Neverending story with incomplete tablebases

Author: Robin Smith

Date: 12:21:26 08/16/03

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On August 16, 2003 at 15:19:01, Robin Smith wrote:

>On August 16, 2003 at 04:47:34, Johan de Koning wrote:
>
>>On August 15, 2003 at 17:50:28, Robin Smith wrote:
>>
>>>On August 14, 2003 at 02:51:36, Johan de Koning wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 13, 2003 at 17:53:30, Dieter Buerssner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 13, 2003 at 03:00:10, Johan de Koning wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On August 10, 2003 at 13:57:00, Amir Ban wrote:
>>>>>>>The log doesn't show what J8 was thinking. Apparently it thought it was mating ,
>>>>>>>because it played all moves in 0 seconds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yet another good reason to clear out the TT at the start of every search!
>>>>>>:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Or to use the time to find a shorter mate, even when seeing a mate already.
>>>>
>>>>Indeed, but that didn't suit my point. :-)
>>>>
>>>>>What are the other good reasons for clearing TTs?
>>>>
>>>>1. Predictability
>>>>   IMHO an engine should just search when a search is needed.
>>>>   After all it is a tool, not a living creature.
>>>>2. Reproducibility
>>>>   Playing and watching games is the best way to spot funny behaviour.
>>>>   Not being able to find the cause of this behaviour is pretty frustrating and
>>>>   may leave unintended features unnoticed.
>>>>3. Complexity
>>>>   Sticky TT requires more data and more code (= more bugs).
>>>>   Complexity is not a big deal once you've got it right and you're not ever
>>>>   going to (want to) change things. But that's theory.
>>>>4. Preprocessor
>>>>   A change of the root position might render all TT entries invalid.
>>>>   Though preprocessing is not as important as it was in the 1980s, I bet most
>>>>   engines compile at least wood and placement tables based on the game stage
>>>>   of the root position.
>>>>5. Pondering
>>>>   If an engine has pondered the wrong move, the TT will be overwritten with
>>>>   positions that are either useless or have the wrong bound.
>>>>6. Time management
>>>>   Admittedly implementation dependent, but the stability of the root (drops,
>>>>   move changes) is useful infomation. The time manager may get confused if
>>>>   this information is lost.
>>>>7. Unforeseen problems
>>>>   Eg the perpetual mate that started this thread. Rather funny actually, if it
>>>>   happens to someone elses engine. But more importantly, rather instructive.
>>>>   Besides the infamous incomplete-EGDB-problem we now have the infamous
>>>>   incomplete-TT-problem. :-)
>>>>
>>>>... Johan
>>>
>>>Johan,
>>>
>>>For someone who uses chess engines to do analysis, rather than just playing
>>>games, clearing Ttables is a serious flaw.
>>
>>Remembering partial analysises randomly is also a serious flaw.
>>User control is the keyword I think.
>>
>>... Johan

Johan, I have analysed with all the top engines. The ones that clear hash tables
are FAR worse for interactive analysis. Believe me.
Robin



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