Author: enrico carrisco
Date: 17:37:56 01/23/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 23, 2004 at 19:50:21, Peter Berger wrote: >On January 23, 2004 at 18:39:23, enrico carrisco wrote: > >>On January 23, 2004 at 18:12:11, Peter Berger wrote: >> >>>On January 23, 2004 at 16:59:27, enrico carrisco wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Really a moot point in my opinion. With the Chessbase function to export to >>>>PGNs, I have a good idea where many engine books originate, even if not used >>>>with the CB GUI. >>>> >>> >>>I guess you have *any* evidence for this claim ? It can't be the Hiarcs book >>>that is used for this I reckon ( slight pun intended ;) ) . >>> >>>I think I have a good idea from what some amateur engine books originate, and >>>it's usually effort or more or less clever solutions by their programmers. Games >>>from cct-1 to cct-5 are availlable to the public - could you please be so kind >>>to point out even one entry that might support your suggestion? >>> >>>Peter >> >>No, you're right.. On second thought, I doubt it ever takes place. Even though >>many amateurs ask to use the CB GUI in events for the books, I'm sure the ones >>who don't ask just write their books from ground zero. >> >>Nevertheless, it doesn't bother me a bit -- pure book wins are not excessively >>glorious. We could play the tournament with no books for all I care. >> >>-elc. > >Are you serious? Are you using irony ? I can't know. > >I assume for now that you think the hinted behaviour of (some?most?all?) >amateurs, namely to cheat by robbing professional books, does take place. I >asked you a serious question - the games of all ccts are open for everybody to >cross-check - show me one entry in these tournaments that did this. I have >replayed all games and think it never happened. You are free to disagree, but >then please provide some data. > >Why do I care ? That's probably obvious to you - Hiarcs participated in cct-3 >and cct-4 - in both tournaments it lost to Gerrit Reubold's program "Der >Bringer" , that I operated. He is a friend of mine. Hiarcs lost both of these >games. In cct-3 this mattered to some extent, as it was the only game Hiarcs >lost during the tourn - in cct-4 it wasn't doing too great anyway, so I assume >Bringer is one likely candidate of your accuse. > >When it is about cct-3 - simply _all_ aspects : tournament repertoire, basic >book + engine are offered for free download for everybody at >www.reubold.onlinehome.de . The Bringer repertoire was simplistic to the >extreme, as everyone can easily see and reproduce - I doubt it was much more >than 20 changes to the default PGN book. The engine simply did better in this >special case. There surely was nothing special about the repertoire :). > >I am not sure which book was used in cct-4 , where Bringer finished 7th and >Hiarcs 18th - probably the Berlin book used in Thorsten's tournament . Again, >nothing special or mysterious about it - if you are interested, I will send it >to you anytime - it's a bit more complicated, but frankly - it really isn't that >great anyway, and most probably no improvement at all, just very detailed :). > >This is about ethics, and ethics mainly. This is a serious topic, when it is >about me, even as a humble beta-tester who did very little to further engine >development itself . It is also about respect though. > >Peter I thought it was clear what I was replying to, originally. Here is a restatement: --- >>>I've also sent email to Volker asking for clarification. It seems to me that >>>the "Junior.ctg", "Shredder.ctg" are pretty generic. >>What I dislike is that if ChessBase books were allowed for everybody there >>were no control at all on what people really use. One could simply rename >>Fritz/Junior/Shredder.ctg to something else and say it is a home-made generic >>book. This can't be controlled in a reasonable way. --- My comment was then: >Really a moot point in my opinion. With the Chessbase function to export to >PGNs, I have a good idea where many engine books originate, even if not used >with the CB GUI. --- You speak of it being very difficult to know if someone was renaming a commercial book if Chessbase books + GUI were allowed for non-chessbase native engines in the tournament. You state: "This can't be controlled in a reasonable way" My point was simple. Just because a the Chessbase GUI or native book isn't used, how do you know that cures the problem of using lines from a commercial book? So not allowing some participants to use the Chessbase GUI, but allowing others to use ChessPartner and Chess Assistant really doesn't make sense to me. Make a rule and make it uniform: You can't use any GUI that isn't freeware if your engine wasn't released with it. As far as your assumption for accusations -- I was never suggesting anything of the sort. I know both of those games well -- the loss to Bringer in CCT3 was quite influential at the end. We had multiple problems in CCT4 -- most due to the early alpha we were using, but we also fixed many problems as a result of that tournament. I don't chalk it up as an overall loss just because of its gross finishing rank. It seems, however, that it was quite impacting upon you. Take any version of Hiarcs you want, remove the book and run a small tournament vs. Bringer to cure that problem. -elc.
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