Author: Rolf Tueschen
Date: 01:19:03 01/26/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 25, 2004 at 23:26:30, Mark Young wrote: >On January 25, 2004 at 21:38:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 25, 2004 at 20:04:16, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >> >>>- - in a famous German forum the kids are on the streets and they shout: >>> >>>These old-fashioned Cray Blitz and Deep Blue monuments won't be "disqualified" >>>by their authors with actualized Elo numbers. >>> >>>Is that true? Would these legends lose badly against today's elite of >>>computerchess programs? >>> >>>I'm waiting! >>> >>>Rolf >> >> >>I don't believe _any_ of them would "lose badly". Any "super-program" from deep >>thought through Cray Blitz would be very tough opponents for today's programs. >>However, hardware is beginning to catch up. Someone just pointed out on a chess >>server last night that this quad opteron system I have is about the same speed >>as the Cray T90 I ran on in 1995, in terms of raw nodes per second (6-7M back >>then, 7-8M typically on the quad opteron). So it is now probable that Crafty >>could actually win a match from Cray Blitz on a T90 with 32 CPUs, assuming I use >>the quad opteron. My quad xeon 700 got ripped by the same machine a couple of >>years back, however, so it would still be dangerous. >> >>I can't say much about how it would compare to other commercial programs as I >>didn't run those tests with very little test time to play with the T90. >> >>The superiority of today's programs over the super-computers of 1995 are mainly >>mythical, IMHO. I suspect the games would be a _lot_ more interesting than some >>would believe. Of course, there is little chance to test such a hypothesis >>since most old programs are long-retired, and such hardware is not readily >>available today. > >Hello Bob, > >I have a question.. > >Since we do have the games of the old retired giants. Is it valid to use todays >top programs to play over the positions of the old programs like Cray-blitz or >Deeper Blue. Would such data be valid when trying to compare the old >super-computers to todays top programs. > >I have seen this done on CCC before, but I am not sure if this kind of >comparison is valid. What do you mean with valid? - It depends of what you want to find out. Think for yourself if a position from tournament play could really be taken in analysis mode for a comparison in 'strength'. I would say yes and no. Overall yes but in detail you must consider that the time management is important for the found solutions. So, if on that aspect today's level is higher developped (time spent pro specific _chess_ position) you will get different answers. But it doesn't mean neccessarily that today is 'stronger' than past what the ability of the past is concerned. Alone the idea that you can take single position from a game and then make comparisons is problematic. Because trivially you dont have the results of the old ones in analysis mode too. For a specific position. Hence - I would say that such comparisons and direct conclusions on "the" strength differences are not valid. With one caveat, perhaps I'm just too unexperienced to know that you can fake tournament mode and all of the past with the actual progs. Only that would allow comparisons - supposed you can fake the same opponent from the past too. ;) But think of the possibility that actual progs wouldn't attain such positions. But if they go for different positions, how could you know how the ancient progs would play? Problems over problems. [For human chess the answer is clear! Solving a chess position is NOT the same as if you play the same position in a game. Would you really have that position on the board / in your mind before? So here you see the key point. With such position solving you can emulate a much higher strength than you really could achieve in tournament play. For human chess the most difficult is to achieve a winning position and then technically win it. In computerchess you always have the difficulty if a program knows what is crucial in a specific position, crucial in terms of winning. It would be interesting to compare the different historical periods on such aspects - for example.] Rolf
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