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Subject: Re: Behind Deep Blue: 3rd print with new Hsu afterword

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 20:21:20 05/08/04

Go up one level in this thread


On May 08, 2004 at 15:54:47, Uri Blass wrote:

So your assumption is that if movei does play a move at 14 ply then it cannot be
a blunder?

>On May 08, 2004 at 15:41:07, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On May 08, 2004 at 13:10:10, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>
>>>On May 08, 2004 at 12:39:03, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>As I said before, the first two moves are "pass" moves.  I don't think they are
>>>>actively bad, they just do nothing.  GMs do not play pass moves.  Current top
>>>>programs rarely play them.  Deep Blue played 3 or 4 in a row ;)
>>>
>>>I think that depends on the position.
>>>Take a look at the Fritz/Junior games against Kramnik and Kasparov, I think they
>>>had plenty of pass moves from both programs, the Hedgehog just being one of
>>>them.
>>>
>>>>>Ruffian 1.0.5  UCI1 15 MB:
>>>>> 6   00:00 -0,01   Qa5c5 Ra1c1 Bc7d6 b3b4 Qc5b5 Nh4f3
>>>>> 7   00:00 -0,05   Qa5c5 Ra1c1 e6e5 g3g4 Bh5g6 Nh4xg6 f7xg6 Kg1h1
>>>>> 8   00:01  0,00   Qa5c5 Ra1c1 Qc5e7 Rc1a1 Qe7d6 Nh4f3 Qd6c5 Ra1c1 e6e5
>>>>> 8   00:02  0,03   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 b3b4 Qa5a4 Nf3d4 g4xh3 Bg2xh3 Nf6g4
>>>>> 9   00:02  0,04   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Nf6xg4 b3b4 Qa5a4 Nd2b3 Nd7e5 Nf3xe5
>>>>>10   00:04  0,05   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Nf6xg4 Nf3d4 c6c5 Nd4e2 Bc7e5 Bb2xe5
>>>>>Nd7xe5 Ne2f4
>>>>>11   00:08 -0,04   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Nf6xg4 c2c4 d5xc4 Nd2xc4 Qa5f5 e3e4
>>>>>Qf5c5 Kg1h1
>>>>>11   00:16 -0,02   Qa5c5 Ra1c1 g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 d3d4 Qc5b5 c2c4 d5xc4 h3xg4
>>>>>Nf6xg4 Rc1xc4
>>>>>
>>>>>How deep is the fail-low for Zappa on g5?
>>>>>A "blunder" should be >1 pawn, IMO.
>>>>
>>>>Ruffian plays g5 for all of 8 seconds :)  Deep Blue had 3 minutes to think.
>>>
>>>Here is a bit longer analysis, it switches back:
>>>
>>>Ruffian 1.0.5  UCI1 62 MB:
>>> 7   00:00 -0,05   Qa5c5 Ra1c1 e6e5 g3g4 Bh5g6 Nh4xg6 f7xg6 Kg1h1
>>> 8   00:01  0,00   Qa5c5 Ra1c1 Qc5e7 Rc1a1 Qe7d6 Nh4f3 Qd6c5 Ra1c1 e6e5
>>> 8   00:02  0,03   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 b3b4 Qa5a4 Nf3d4 g4xh3 Bg2xh3 Nf6g4
>>> 9   00:03  0,04   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Nf6xg4 b3b4 Qa5a4 Nd2b3 Nd7e5 Nf3xe5
>>>10   00:04  0,05   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Nf6xg4 Nf3d4 c6c5 Nd4e2 Bc7e5 Bb2xe5
>>>Nd7xe5 Ne2f4
>>>11   00:09 -0,04   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Nf6xg4 c2c4 d5xc4 Nd2xc4 Qa5f5 e3e4
>>>Qf5c5 Kg1h1
>>>11   00:16 -0,02   Qa5c5 Ra1c1 g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 d3d4 Qc5b5 c2c4 d5xc4 h3xg4
>>>Nf6xg4 Rc1xc4
>>>12   00:38 -0,04   Qa5c5 g3g4 Bh5g6 Ra1c1 Bg6h7 Kg1h1 e6e5 Nh4f5 Bh7xf5 g4xf5
>>>g7g6 f5xg6 f7xg6 Rf1g1
>>>12   00:48  0,01   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Bh5xg4 d3d4 Qa5b5 a3a4 Qb5b6 e3e4 d5xe4
>>>Nf3h2 Bg4f5 Nd2xe4
>>>13   01:38 -0,02   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Nf6xg4 Nf3d4 Qa5b6 f2f3 Ng4f6 g3g4
>>>Bh5g6 Kg1h1 c6c5 Nd4e2
>>>14   04:02  0,03   g7g5 Nh4f3 g5g4 h3xg4 Nf6xg4 e3e4 e6e5 e4xd5 c6xd5 c2c4 Ra8e8
>>>Nf3h4 Nd7f6 c4xd5 Nf6xd5 Nh4f5
>>
>>I can add that movei likes g5 as the best move for black so I do not believe
>>that it is a blunder.
>>
>>The people who claim that it is a blunder did not show how to beat chess program
>>after this blunder so I cannot take their analysis as serious.
>>
>>I will take analysis of GM's as serious if after claiming that a move is a
>>blunder they will give a game to show how they beat chess programs after the
>>blunder.
>>
>>Uri
>
>I can add that kasparov won the game but I do not claim that deeper blue did no
>mistakes but only that I do not believe that g5 was one of them and the question
>is if humans can beat computers when computers do not repeat the mistakes that
>deeper blue did later.
>
>
>Movei still likes g5 even at depth 14 so it seems to me not to be a bad move.
>
>I did not teach movei to have big panalty against pushing pawns near the king
>and there are games when movei wins by pushing the pawns near the king forward.
>
>Here is one of them against mchess
>
>http://f50.parsimony.net/forum200336/messages/1757.htm



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