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Subject: Re: ELO fails at the extremes

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 14:35:43 01/31/99

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On January 30, 1999 at 11:22:59, KarinsDad wrote:

>On January 30, 1999 at 06:33:21, blass uri wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>My meaning is as follows:
>>>
>>>Win expectency for a difference of 1000 points is 0.00315231 (as per Dann's
>>>posting).
>>>
>>>This means that out of 100,000 players with an 1800 ELO (1900 USCF rated
>>>players), 315 of them should on average win (i.e. 315 wins or even more draws)
>>>against Garry Kasparov in standard tournament times if all 100,000 of them
>>>played him. This is total bull. It would be an amazing event if even one of them
>>>won (or even drew) against Garry Kasparov in standard tournament times.
>>
>>I do not think it will be an amazing result.
>>
>>Kasparov is a human and can do a stupid mistake if he play many games.
>>If kasparov is suddenly ill in a game and the opponent did a good opening
>>preperation against him then kasparov may lose.
>>
>>I know a case when a 2000 elo player won a grandmaster in a tournament game
>>after less then 2 hours.
>>I asked him how did he do it and he replied that everything was opening
>>preperation.
>>The grandmaster fell into a trap(The 2000 player prepared at home)
>
>What level GM 2300, 2400, 2500, 2600? In any of these cases, the formula
>probabilities are: 300 3 in 20, 400 1 in 11, 500 1 in 20, 600 3 in 100.
>
>These statistical ranges may be close to accurate, but I doubt it. But you'll
>notice that all of these ranges are well within what we would expect to see in
>our lifetimes. It should be easy to see a 2000 ELO player beat a 2600 ELO player
>if it is 1 chance in 33. Sooner or later, you will see it. Maybe 10 times a year
>in the US. Even if it was 1 in 300, you would eventually expect to see it
>happen. Probably about once a year in the US. So, your example is anecdotal at
>best. You expect it to happen eventually.
>
>So instead, to illustrate my point, I was talking about a 1000 difference where
>the PRACTICAL chances are almost statistically 0, but the formula states that it
>is 1 in 317. Yes Kasparov could get sick and lose a game or two. But he would
>not lose 315 games out of 100,000 or 3 games out of 1000.
>
>I personally think that Kasparov could be on this deathbed and play 1000 games
>against 1000 1800 ELO players over the last year and a half of his life and win
>them all, but that is pure speculation.
>
>Again, it would be nice to analyze results of all of the rated games in the US
>for the last year. That would be a sample size of what, between 200,000 and
>500,000 games? Give or take. That is what we need to find out if I am correct or
>not.
>
>KarinsDad


All of the Elo analysis is based on the 'normal curve'... which absolutely
says that a 2600 player can lose a 10 game match 10-0 to a 1000 player.  The
odds aren't very good, to be sure, but the probability is not 'zero'...

which is probably the point of the whole discussion?



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