Author: Arturo Ochoa
Date: 03:03:03 08/20/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 19, 2005 at 21:29:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 19, 2005 at 20:49:56, Arturo Ochoa wrote: > >>On August 19, 2005 at 20:36:45, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On August 19, 2005 at 19:50:08, Richard Pijl wrote: >>> >>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:43:01, Thomas Lagershausen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:26:55, A. Cozzie wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Here I screwed my book creator, because the horrible, horrible Fritz interface >>>>>>resets the book options every time you touch the mouse, and played with >>>>>>incorrect options. But somehow Zappa managed to slip into the win anyway; >>>>>>perhaps it was a bit lucky. >>>>>> >>>>>>anthony >>>>> >>>>>Never play with the cb-gui. It had cost a lot of programs points in the history >>>>>of wccc. >>>>> >>>>>I hope Zappa 2.0 is still uci and can be used in Arena. >>>>> >>>>>TL >>>> >>>>Zappa's book requires the CB-GUI >>>>Richard. >>> >>>I think that it is unfair to use books that require the CB-GUI >>>If I understand correctly it means that the GUI choose the book moves and not >>>the engine so the author is using something external program to help him to >>>select moves. >>> >>>I think that the engine needs to choose all the moves(otherwise the playing >>>thing is not original work of the author and the authors of the chessbase gui >>>should be mentioned as part of the team). >>> >>>Uri >> >>Uri Blass, the king of the absurd arguments. >> >>1) For CCT7 and the Elhvest Match, I used the native format for Zappa. >> >>2) For WCCC2005, there are several engines that has been using the ChessBase >>GUI. However, it doesn't mean that the Book was made by ChessBase. The Book >>Responsible for Zappa in the WCCC2005 has been Erdogan whose book is in the >>ChessBase format. It is his original work performed by several years. >> >>The engine is a complete original work of Anthony Cozzie. >> >>If you are going to begin your post-WCCC2005 nonsense before the Tournament is >>over, I suggest you find other hobby according to your absurd world, instead of >>writing craps every day of the year. > > > >This argument comes up every year, and Uri has a valid point. To begin such argument where the Tournament is quite over is just absurd. Erdogan's Book is in CB Format and he had only a few weeks to test Zappa. > >Although the ICGA doesn't seem to quite grasp the problem that many of us have >pointed out. The opening book is a _significant_ part of a chess engine. Which >means the code to select moves from that book based on some sort of algorithm is >going to possibly play a significant number of moves, if not the majority of the >moves in the game. Allowing someone else to write this code and then share it >among multiple engines is simply wrong. Writing custom books is fine, but the >chess engine author should be responsible for any code that makes chess playing >decisions. While the ICGA doesnt care about format rule to forbid this, the discussion is just a waste of time. Nobody can say that I have ever used a CB Book for a specific engine. Erdogan has developed the book in several years and I had to retire from the Zappa's behalf for personal reasons. > >For example, we could have the following issues: > >1. If the GUI chooses book moves, and handles book learning, is it reasonable >that the _same_ code be used in multiple engines? I tend to say "no". Invalid: Not time for learning, since Erdogan only had 3 weeks to tune his Book for Zappa. He has already an incredible work. > >2. If the GUI does the time allocation, tells the engine how long to search, >when to search longer, when to search faster, handles multiple time controls, >and so forth, isn't that a major function that a chess engine has to manage? If >so, is it fair that multiple programs share this code since they share a common >GUI? Again, I would say "no". > >3. If the GUI handles endgame tables, should the GUI be able to either >instantly play a table move, or say "let's search, this is a draw, and we want >to give the opponent a chance to make an error." I coded "swindle mode" into my >program, along with code to handle missing tables (you have kpk but not kqk so >your program might never promote without a fix.) Is it reasonable for a single >author to write code to do all of that, and then have multiple programs share it >in a tournament? Again, "no". Ir doesn't apply for Zappa because it access the EGTBs via Zappa and not by CB. > >4. Should a book author be able to write a book for multiple engines? Can he >physically separate the two projects so there is _nothing_ in common? Of course >he can't, and this is simply a bad idea. This has come up multiple times, and >yet it never gets addressed properly, because it might "offend" a commercial >company that sells programs that could share the book. It doesnt apply either for this case, since Zappa is using the help of Erdogan and I was contacted by Diepeveen. > >I have no problem with a GUI doing "GUI tasks". Recognizing moves, displaying >the board, displaying the clock, etc. But the GUI has no place going farther >and actually influencing which moves are played in a game. Because that crosses >over into what the engine is supposed to be doing. GUI means "Graphical User >Interface". Not "Graphical User Interface and front-end to make basic chess >move decisions before letting the engine do anything." Zappa required a last hour booker and Erdogan was a great solution. On fact, Zappa is winning the Tournament for now. >In the Zappa case, I don't have any problem with it using a "book" written by >anybody (so long as it is a one-user book and not shared.) But the current GUI >is taking over too much of the game's complexity... Winboard/Xboard is an >example of a reasonable "GUI". Just does GUI tasks. No book, no timing >decisions, no endgame table probes, no nothing but relaying information between >the user and the engine, exactly what a "user interface" should be doing... I don't really care if you have problems or not. Winboard is not a reasonable GUI as far as it can't manage a simple book structure. Yes, I admire how Peter Beger can stand the work with simple txt files, but he has had more thanb 3 weeks to prepare the Crafty's Book.
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