Author: emerson tan
Date: 07:57:10 12/15/05
Go up one level in this thread
On December 15, 2005 at 07:55:46, Vincent Lejeune wrote: >On December 15, 2005 at 04:02:38, emerson tan wrote: > >>I posted the position of Nikolic vs Fischer 5 years ago in this forum and no >>program can find Fischer's 19...Bg4!! even if you let all the programs compute >>for several days. >> >>The position is sound because I let the computer play the position and black >>always win even if both white and black engine asses the position as winning for >>white. >> >>Now 5 years after with several times faster hardware and emergence of strong >>programs and improved old programs, Can any program find Fischer's 19...Bg4 !! >> >> Nikolic,E - Fischer,R, Vinkovci 1968 >>[D] r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp1bnp/3PpN2/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/3Q1R2 b - - 0 1 > >Are you sure this sac is winning ? > >23.Kg1 seems strange > >[d]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp4/3PpN2/2N1PpP1/1R1B1P1K/3Q3R w - - 0 23 > >TogaIIa after 2 sec and Rybka after 29 sec give up with 23.Kg1 > >Analysis by Toga II 1.1a: >... >23.Rg1 Rg7 24.a6 Fxf4 25.exf4 Th8 26.Txh8 Txh8 27.f5 gxf5 28.bxc6 bxc6 > +- (1.47) Profondeur: 9/25 00:00:00 488kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Df1 Th8 25.Rg1 Tab8 26.a6 bxa6 27.bxc6 Dxc6 28.Txb8 Txb8 > +- (1.53) Profondeur: 9/25 00:00:02 1392kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Tab8 25.Db1 Dc7 26.b6 axb6 27.axb6 Dd7 28.Ta2 > +- (1.58) Profondeur: 10/28 00:00:04 2524kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Tab8 25.Da4 Dc7 26.b6 axb6 27.axb6 De7 28.Da7 Th8 > +- (1.64) Profondeur: 11/28 00:00:07 4407kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 a6 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Db1 Th8 27.Tb7 Dg4 28.Db6 De6 29.Dc7 > +- (1.76) Profondeur: 12/32 00:00:18 10816kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Th8 25.a6 Fxe3 26.bxc6 Dg4 27.Fxe3 Txh3 28.Txh3 Dxh3 29.Df1 >Dxf1+ 30.Rxf1 bxc6 31.Tb7 > +- (1.73) Profondeur: 13/37 00:00:33 19690kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Th8 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Db1 Df5 27.Tb7 Fxe3 28.Fxe3 Txh3 29.Txh3 >Dxh3 30.Df1 Dxf1+ 31.Rxf1 Th8 32.Re1 a6 > +- (1.58) Profondeur: 14/37 00:00:47 28258kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Th8 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Db1 Dc8 27.Tb7 Fxe3 28.Fxe3 Txh3 29.Txh3 >Dxh3 30.Df1 Dxf1+ 31.Rxf1 Cg4 32.Ff4 Th8 33.Rg1 > +- (1.48) Profondeur: 15/39 00:01:14 45092kN > > >Analysis by Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit: >... >23.Rg1 Rg7 24.Ch3 Tab8 25.a6 cxb5 26.Txb5 > ± (1.32) Profondeur: 10 00:00:05 362kN >23.Rg1 Rg7 24.Ch3 Teb8 25.Db3 Dc8 26.Cf4 Cg4 > ± (1.34) Profondeur: 11 00:00:10 624kN >23.Rg1 Fxf4 24.exf4 Rg7 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Df1 Th8 27.Txh8 Txh8 > ² (0.55) Profondeur: 12 00:00:24 1616kN >23.bxc6 bxc6 24.Ch3 Cg4+ 25.Rg1 Rg7 26.Db1 Th8 27.Tb7 Dc8 > ± (1.05) Profondeur: 12 00:00:29 1993kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Teb8 25.Da4 Cg4 26.a6 De6 27.Tb1 > ± (1.39) Profondeur: 12 00:01:03 4318kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Tab8 25.Db3 Dc7 26.b6 axb6 27.cxb6 Dd7 > +- (1.49) Profondeur: 13 00:01:48 7503kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Tab8 25.Db3 Th8 26.bxc6 Dxc6 27.Tb1 Dd7 > +- (1.49) Profondeur: 14 00:02:29 10406kN >23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 a6 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Df1 Th8 27.Ca4 Dg4 > +- (1.47) Profondeur: 15 00:04:02 16959kN > > > > >[Event "Vinkovci"] >[Site "Vinkovci"] >[Date "1968.??.??"] >[Round "9"] >[White "Nikolic, Emil"] >[Black "Fischer, Robert James"] >[Result "0-1"] >[ECO "E61"] >[PlyCount "62"] >[EventDate "1968.09.??"] >[EventRounds "13"] >[EventCountry "YUG"] > >1. c4 g6 2. Nc3 Bg7 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 d6 5. e3 Nf6 6. Nge2 O-O 7. O-O c6 8. d4 >Re8 9. Rb1 e4 10. b4 Bf5 11. h3 h5 12. Nf4 Nbd7 13. a4 Nf8 14. c5 d5 15. b5 >N8h7 16. Bd2 Ng5 17. Rb2 Qd7 18. Kh2 Bh6 19. a5 Bg4 20. hxg4 hxg4 21. Rh1 Nf3+ >22. Bxf3 gxf3 23. Kg1 Bxf4 24. exf4 Kg7 25. f5 Rh8 26. Bh6+ Rxh6 27. Rxh6 Kxh6 >28. Qd2+ g5 29. bxc6 Qxf5 30. Nd1 Qh3 31. Ne3 Kg6 0-1 I run eng eng match with the position after 19...Bg4 with Shredder taking as white and fritz as Black. I also tried Hiarcs as white against Fritz. white always end up losing even though initially for several moves, shredder, hiarcs and fritz evaluate white as winning. So maybe the evaluation you see on other engines cant see the win for black also. I chose shredder and hiarcs as white coz they have position learning, they will not play the same line twice after they lose, so in a series of games, you can see many variations trying different lines. I run about 30 plus games with shredder and Fritz and 30 plus games with hiarcs and fritz at 40/2 20/1 and white always end up losing. The engine starts playing at move 20 so there's a lot of time to think for the engine. With the results, I think its a winning position for black after 19...Bg4 Its nice to explore that position, trying to find the truth in it.
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