Author: emerson tan
Date: 08:02:45 12/15/05
Go up one level in this thread
On December 15, 2005 at 10:57:10, emerson tan wrote: >On December 15, 2005 at 07:55:46, Vincent Lejeune wrote: > >>On December 15, 2005 at 04:02:38, emerson tan wrote: >> >>>I posted the position of Nikolic vs Fischer 5 years ago in this forum and no >>>program can find Fischer's 19...Bg4!! even if you let all the programs compute >>>for several days. >>> >>>The position is sound because I let the computer play the position and black >>>always win even if both white and black engine asses the position as winning for >>>white. >>> >>>Now 5 years after with several times faster hardware and emergence of strong >>>programs and improved old programs, Can any program find Fischer's 19...Bg4 !! >>> >>> Nikolic,E - Fischer,R, Vinkovci 1968 >>>[D] r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp1bnp/3PpN2/2N1P1PP/1R1B1PBK/3Q1R2 b - - 0 1 >> >>Are you sure this sac is winning ? >> >>23.Kg1 seems strange >> >>[d]r3r1k1/pp1q1p2/2p2npb/PPPp4/3PpN2/2N1PpP1/1R1B1P1K/3Q3R w - - 0 23 >> >>TogaIIa after 2 sec and Rybka after 29 sec give up with 23.Kg1 >> >>Analysis by Toga II 1.1a: >>... >>23.Rg1 Rg7 24.a6 Fxf4 25.exf4 Th8 26.Txh8 Txh8 27.f5 gxf5 28.bxc6 bxc6 >> +- (1.47) Profondeur: 9/25 00:00:00 488kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Df1 Th8 25.Rg1 Tab8 26.a6 bxa6 27.bxc6 Dxc6 28.Txb8 Txb8 >> +- (1.53) Profondeur: 9/25 00:00:02 1392kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Tab8 25.Db1 Dc7 26.b6 axb6 27.axb6 Dd7 28.Ta2 >> +- (1.58) Profondeur: 10/28 00:00:04 2524kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Tab8 25.Da4 Dc7 26.b6 axb6 27.axb6 De7 28.Da7 Th8 >> +- (1.64) Profondeur: 11/28 00:00:07 4407kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 a6 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Db1 Th8 27.Tb7 Dg4 28.Db6 De6 29.Dc7 >> +- (1.76) Profondeur: 12/32 00:00:18 10816kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Th8 25.a6 Fxe3 26.bxc6 Dg4 27.Fxe3 Txh3 28.Txh3 Dxh3 29.Df1 >>Dxf1+ 30.Rxf1 bxc6 31.Tb7 >> +- (1.73) Profondeur: 13/37 00:00:33 19690kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Th8 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Db1 Df5 27.Tb7 Fxe3 28.Fxe3 Txh3 29.Txh3 >>Dxh3 30.Df1 Dxf1+ 31.Rxf1 Th8 32.Re1 a6 >> +- (1.58) Profondeur: 14/37 00:00:47 28258kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Th8 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Db1 Dc8 27.Tb7 Fxe3 28.Fxe3 Txh3 29.Txh3 >>Dxh3 30.Df1 Dxf1+ 31.Rxf1 Cg4 32.Ff4 Th8 33.Rg1 >> +- (1.48) Profondeur: 15/39 00:01:14 45092kN >> >> >>Analysis by Rybka 1.0 Beta 32-bit: >>... >>23.Rg1 Rg7 24.Ch3 Tab8 25.a6 cxb5 26.Txb5 >> ± (1.32) Profondeur: 10 00:00:05 362kN >>23.Rg1 Rg7 24.Ch3 Teb8 25.Db3 Dc8 26.Cf4 Cg4 >> ± (1.34) Profondeur: 11 00:00:10 624kN >>23.Rg1 Fxf4 24.exf4 Rg7 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Df1 Th8 27.Txh8 Txh8 >> ² (0.55) Profondeur: 12 00:00:24 1616kN >>23.bxc6 bxc6 24.Ch3 Cg4+ 25.Rg1 Rg7 26.Db1 Th8 27.Tb7 Dc8 >> ± (1.05) Profondeur: 12 00:00:29 1993kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Teb8 25.Da4 Cg4 26.a6 De6 27.Tb1 >> ± (1.39) Profondeur: 12 00:01:03 4318kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Tab8 25.Db3 Dc7 26.b6 axb6 27.cxb6 Dd7 >> +- (1.49) Profondeur: 13 00:01:48 7503kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 Tab8 25.Db3 Th8 26.bxc6 Dxc6 27.Tb1 Dd7 >> +- (1.49) Profondeur: 14 00:02:29 10406kN >>23.Ch3 Rg7 24.Rg1 a6 25.bxc6 bxc6 26.Df1 Th8 27.Ca4 Dg4 >> +- (1.47) Profondeur: 15 00:04:02 16959kN >> >> >> >> >>[Event "Vinkovci"] >>[Site "Vinkovci"] >>[Date "1968.??.??"] >>[Round "9"] >>[White "Nikolic, Emil"] >>[Black "Fischer, Robert James"] >>[Result "0-1"] >>[ECO "E61"] >>[PlyCount "62"] >>[EventDate "1968.09.??"] >>[EventRounds "13"] >>[EventCountry "YUG"] >> >>1. c4 g6 2. Nc3 Bg7 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 d6 5. e3 Nf6 6. Nge2 O-O 7. O-O c6 8. d4 >>Re8 9. Rb1 e4 10. b4 Bf5 11. h3 h5 12. Nf4 Nbd7 13. a4 Nf8 14. c5 d5 15. b5 >>N8h7 16. Bd2 Ng5 17. Rb2 Qd7 18. Kh2 Bh6 19. a5 Bg4 20. hxg4 hxg4 21. Rh1 Nf3+ >>22. Bxf3 gxf3 23. Kg1 Bxf4 24. exf4 Kg7 25. f5 Rh8 26. Bh6+ Rxh6 27. Rxh6 Kxh6 >>28. Qd2+ g5 29. bxc6 Qxf5 30. Nd1 Qh3 31. Ne3 Kg6 0-1 > > >I run eng eng match with the position after 19...Bg4 with Shredder taking as >white and fritz as Black. I also tried Hiarcs as white against Fritz. white >always end up losing even though initially for several moves, shredder, hiarcs >and fritz evaluate white as winning. So maybe the evaluation you see on other >engines cant see the win for black also. > >I chose shredder and hiarcs as white coz they have position learning, they will >not play the same line twice after they lose, so in a series of games, you can >see many variations trying different lines. I run about 30 plus games with >shredder and Fritz and 30 plus games with hiarcs and fritz at 40/2 20/1 and >white always end up losing. The engine starts playing at move 20 so there's a >lot of time to think for the engine. With the results, I think its a winning >position for black after 19...Bg4 > >Its nice to explore that position, trying to find the truth in it. addendum: I remember also eventually hiarcs and shredder also chose the line 23. Nh3 but they also lost as white. I forgot to save those files, anyway if you have time and it interrest you, you can try it yourself
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