Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 07:07:07 06/22/99
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On June 19, 1999 at 10:31:20, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On June 19, 1999 at 08:29:09, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On June 18, 1999 at 20:16:44, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On June 18, 1999 at 18:31:05, Roger D Davis wrote: >>> >>>>I found this message on the Rebel Site where the events of round six were >>>>reported: >>>> >>>>Ed and I took the opportunity to play some 10 minute blitz games against Deep >>>>Blue Junior. Amazingly Rebel crushed the IBM supermonster with 3-0! Deep Blue >>>>Junior had no chance in these games, so one can have his doubts about the >>>>playing strength of this machine. >>>> >>>>I haven't seen anyone else mention Deep Blue Junior. >>>> >>>>Roger >>> >>> >>>Ed didn't tell "the rest of the story" so I will... >>> >>>I ask Hsu about this 'machine' a few weeks back, and here is what he told me >>>about it: >>> >>>Some internal IBM folks asked him to develop a 'demo' facility to show off DB. >>>He elected to do a web-based interface, which is "stateless" if you know what >>>this is all about. In essence, this machine won't play a "game" at all, it >>>simply takes a position, searches it for 1 second (which includes mostly the >>>time needed to download the chess processors with the state information) and >> >>it sometimes takes minutes for it to come back, but it doesn't search for 1 >>second, but like 15 seconds. it shows the time using the time at the ibm >>server. it shows this. >> >>a major problem for it is the opening. it plays really silly moves. >>after 1 move it seems out of book. > > >Vincent, do you understand the concept of "stateless"? It doesn't know it >is playing a _game_. It only sees a single position and computes for less >than one second to produce a move... So it is more than possible that it >doesn't use a book. Or it might have a book so impossibly wide that it plays >all sorts of stuff... Right, it seems they didn't implement book. In DIEP i also do a stateless search in the book; just matching hash key. You can setup a position without any problem. I don't think it searches all kind of stuff, it's just out of book real soon. it eats up too many seconds after 1.e4,d5 to think out the next move. d5 got played within a second (clock times it shows locally there, not the times i would get with stopwatch). >>secondly, it handles pawnstructure like a child, so even if it searches >>like only 7 ply fullwidth, then still it's awful handling things positional, >>without talking about tactics even. If it is searching way less deeply >>than any other program, then this evaluation is already a major problem. >> >>How can someone handle positional things *that* bad? >> >>>es a move. No repetition testing at all, no game history, no >>>nothing except for a near-instant search. However, it can take quite a while >>>to make a move because _many_ web browsers get pointed at this thing by the >>>IBM guys doing demos... >>> >>>Hsu estimated that it might play at 2200 or so. Which was all that was needed >>>for the demonstrations it is used for. It is _not_ "deep blue junior" by any >>>measure you would care to name. >>> >>>And putting such nonsense on Ed's web page is _highly_ misleading. >>> >>>To say the least. >>>Bob >>it is showing at the screen: >>DEEP BLUE JUNIOR in a major font >> >>No question about it. >> >>Either IBM is lying on its screen, or perhaps it's really as bad as >>i'm telling for years? > > >read what I wrote. I specifically ask Hsu about it a while back. That is >his explanation _exactly_ as to what it is. Right. in that case it's better not to judge TACTICS of it, but to judge how it plays positional. How it plays positional is simple to write down: it moves with both pieces and pawns (as everyone), but it seems to place pieces at the right squares and it puts pawns at the wrong squares. Its pieces it tries to creat threats with, or more general spoken, it tries to attack the king with it and just moves them to a square where it threatens to capture weak pawns. It doesn't do a thing with centre. It seems it's more busy attacking opponents stuff and now and then moving a pawn. Positional spoken: it plays very agressive but positional/strategic very weak. Big surprise in this: it doesn't do a thing with the centre! >>it's just playing with its pieces, some things it seems to understand, >>like that a rook in the corner can be bad when its closed in, >>see ferret - fritz of today where fritz got after some bad moves >>(personally i'm still considering fritz was won after the opening) >>got a rook closed in the corner. it seems this deep blue junior knows this. >> >>So even if it thinks for say 15 seconds, and practically a few seconds, >>then still there is a lot to explain. >> >>Greetings, >>Vincent >> >>Greetings, >>Vincent
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