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Subject: Re: Is This Year Crafty's Best Chance To Win The World Championship?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 06:21:31 05/23/00

Go up one level in this thread


On May 23, 2000 at 04:08:16, Tom Kerrigan wrote:

>On May 23, 2000 at 03:08:52, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>
>>On May 23, 2000 at 02:39:30, Tom Kerrigan wrote:
>>
>>>For some reason, people seem to believe that unless you're using 100% of your
>>>processor all the time, you could make do with a slower processor.
>>>
>>>Okay, maybe your processor spends the VAST majority of its time waiting on you.
>>>But that's not what matters. What matters is how much time you spend waiting on
>>>the processor.
>>>
>>>I have an 800MHz Pentium III at work. It is very noticably faster than my 400MHz
>>>Celeron at home. Even if I'm just browsing the web, I definitely prefer using my
>>>work computer because I have to wait on it half as long.
>>
>>I'm all for faster computers, I just don't see what the benefit is of having two
>>processors in a computer that's used by the typical home or business user.  I
>>may have to add "yet" to the previous sentence, but maybe not.
>>
>>People need more processors if:
>>
>>1) They do two CPU-intensive things at once.  The typical user doesn't do this
>>very much.
>>
>>    or
>>
>>2) The application they are using can divide work.  The typical application does
>>not divide work.  There are lots of reasons for this.  We have a chicken and egg
>>problem due to most computers being single processor.  Another reason is that
>>many tasks are inherently sequential.  Another reason is that many tasks take
>>very little time to execute, so multiprocessor overhead doesn't make a lot of
>>sense.  Another reason is that many tasks that take a lot of time take a lot of
>>time due to bottlenecks other than the processor.  And finally, if you have a
>>task that is significant enough that you could notice time saved due to an
>>additional processor, and it is able to be broken down into parts that can be
>>done concurrently, multiprocessor code is often difficult to design, build,
>>debug, document, and maintain.  Adding multiprocessor features to most programs
>>is a poor design decision.
>>
>>I am not a Luddite.  If you have your normal single-threaded compute-bound app,
>>and you double processor speed, the improvement is immediate, and I approve of
>>this kind of improvement, most definitely.  But take one of the many commercial
>>chess apps and put it on a quad processor machine and see what happens --
>>nothing.  This is also true of essentially *any* current app you can buy that
>>does anything.
>>
>>Chess is actually a great case for multiprocessor computers, so for us, they are
>>cool.
>>
>>But it will be a while until the typical user sees much advantage to adding
>>another processor, I think.
>>
>>I see that multiple processor machines are becoming more common, but I can't
>>understand why, and I can't understand why this trend would continue.
>>
>>bruce
>
>Sorry, I didn't read your post carefully and didn't realize you were talking
>specifically about multiple processors.
>
>"Multiprocessing" will hopefully become widespread soon thanks to
>multi-threading processors. This is an idea that [mainly] Compaq/Alpha has been
>promoting. The idea is that if you have a processor with 2 execution units, you
>can do one of two things:
>
>1) Use both units to execute a single thread; unfortunately, one of the units
>will probably be idle a lot of the time. This is what most chips do now.
>
>2) Use one unit per thread, in the case that two threads are running. That way,
>neither unit spins.
>
>The chip real-estate overhead for multithreading is evidently pretty small.
>Hopefully it will be incorperated in mainstream chips soon.
>
>-Tom


That is the main case we were discussing.  I pointed out that within the next
3-5 years, most microprocessors will probably follow this path, so that each
single processor chip will have 2 (or even 4) cpus internally.  Multi-threading
CPUS are a bit different, but not much. Some designs don't really have multiple
cpu cores, but they are able to contain multiple processor states, so that
context-switching is essentially free.



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