Author: Joe Besogn
Date: 06:28:14 11/08/00
Go up one level in this thread
On November 08, 2000 at 07:39:24, Thorsten Czub wrote: >On November 08, 2000 at 06:28:54, Joe Besogn wrote: > >>>Just replace amerindian's bows and arrows with nuclear bombs, leave them alone >>>for a while, then come back and ask them what they think about the efficiency of >>>this new tool. >>> >>>Oops... There is nobody left to answer. They had the choice to use the bombs to >>>hunt (and nuke themselves), or to die from starvation. >>> >>>Just a remark about the different ways to view things. :) > >if Gorbatschow would not have changed paradigms, >(the americans would never have done this ! they still live in >a paradigm where Russians are their main danger and communism >is the devil ! - for americans the paradigm changes have not been happened, >but here in europe, the paradigm change in politics has been done succesfully.) >we would still live in a cold war, with 2 berlins, 2 germanys and >the rockets on the left and on the right side. >in the moment the americans give up to boycott cuba, they show that >they got an idea about paradigm change. so far - no progress. > > >>Quite so. To draw on Kuhn's ideas .... > >>Fernando was doing 'normal science' - and was arguing on the more-is-better, >>bigger-is-better basis (nukes more effective than bows and arrows). > >right. > >>Christophe feels the revolutionary space is growing, so he fills it a little >>more. > >:-) > >>Just drawing parallels. > >IMO many people don't understand that gambit-tiger is different >than other programs, like cstal was different in its time. Yes. They are in a trap set by the old paradigm. Results trap. They only notice a thing if it has more ELO points than another thing. You were different, you looked closely at the thing itself. They looked at results-of-the-thing, you looked at the thing. Plus you thought in another framework in any case. So you saw very fast, they had to wait five years. > >it trusts its evaluations, and the very efficient search gambit-tiger >has, makes its IDEAS so powerful that it can easily win >to country-championships en passant. Yes. The IDEA. If they wait for the results-of-the-idea then they are blinded by themselves. The idea was with Botwinnik, but he never made a program, only a program on paper; then with CSTal, the idea was there for all to see, but they only looked-at-results and said the programmer never offered anything constructive; then with Tiger - the anomoly to disprove the old paradigm was there all along, but it had to jump up and bite them before they noticed. Tiger bites !!! If they looked at CSTal, if they listened, they'ld have seen that ALL moves at the root were scored, scores broken into components, all to two places of decimals. The entire evaluation algorithm was there for all to see. Only they didn't look. It was there for five years, only they didn't look. And said the programmer 'never offered anything constructive'. One of them, who never let anyone ever see his program ever, said "he never offered anything constructive". Astonishing how those in another paradigm see the 'truth'. > >christophe is very clever in combining new ideas. >old tiger was very strong, and aggressive. that was the reason the >old tiger was a beast when it first appeared in the scene. >but by tuning and tuning, old tiger (that is now version 13) >lost some strength. christophe wanted to make it more accurate, >and this completely stopped tiger from playing its own game. Yes, this is an effect of the new paradigm. More 'accuracy' doesn't help. > >but christophe, and that is his main strength IMO, is capable to >say: i maybe made a mistake, i have to reconsider. if i don't get >good results anymore, my way is maybe wrong. i have to try out >the new way. i have often realized how pragmatic christophe >is when it comes to changes in tiger. this is rare IMO. Yes. Partly. All programmers are very pragmatic. Pragmatism is the driving force in normal science. It is pragmatism that causes them to hill-climb. Christophe's strength was that he was prepared to ask the how and why and to try another hill. To his surprise it worked, as it will work for the others. His strength was his ability to reassess what he was doing. To ask the questions the others didn't think of. >most chess programmers are afraid to change their child. >especially when it is very strong. they only tune. >little by little. Yes, exactly. So always they stay on the SAME hill. >christophe made a new engine, and combined all his experience so far >into it, and IMO he also learned from cstal-way and that you have >to CONTROL the game, with initiative. We don't know what were Christophe's sources. He may never have even had a copy of CSTal. But that wasn't important, he ony had to be open to the ideas behind it. And these ideas were 'open-source', spoken about many times. Likely he didn't even consciously think of CSTal, but, when his surprising results came from his act of daring, he already had the language, the words, to help form his ideas. It was the idea and the language that was important. He needed the concept "bean-counter", he needed the concept "drive into the fog", because these helped his brain wrap around his new thoughts. Words, Thorsten, words, very powerful things. something the old tiger 11.2 >had at the paderborn-tournament, when shredder (as clever+smart) and nimzo >and comet and gandalf and and and first met, and chess-tiger 11.2 made >the 3rd rank. > >IMO the main fight is between stefan and christophe. >Stefan has now to compete with new ideas , with the new paradigm. Yes. As soon as the new paradigm 'works' in the measurement system of the old one, even though that measurement system will be junked as unimportant now, just as soon as it 'works', then they will all jump. They are jumping now. > >in the moment stefan tries this way too, the old paradigm is lost, >cause when the new paradigm gets better results, and the best programs >choose the new way, the old concepts get forgotten - no matter how loud >the old wolfes (and we know they will cry for their life-work...) >will cry to the moon... Yes. > >gorbatchow had the power to change his own system ! >he knew HE has to do it. the same for other revolutionists. >sometimes you have to tear down your own system. >because you have seen it is not working anymore, >you have to change. >remember what jesus did in the temple ? >gambit - tiger is IMO such a beast. >it is revolutionary. the problem for the others is: >with cstal they were able to say: it works only 50% of the games. >its shit. More fool them. > >they cannot say the same with gambit-tiger, can they ? No. They will try. Maybe if it is a few ELO below Fritz in SSDF, they will claim it doesn't work, and they are ok to carry on as before !!! Sit back and watch them fight over a few ELO points now !!! >gambit-tiger will develop. christophe will make 2.0 and later 3.0 >and if he follows the new way, i am sure the old paradigm has nothing >to stop him. I am sure also.
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