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Subject: Re: Kramnik interview

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 12:49:25 04/30/01

Go up one level in this thread


On April 30, 2001 at 13:58:20, Uri Blass wrote:

>On April 30, 2001 at 11:10:29, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On April 30, 2001 at 10:15:16, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On April 30, 2001 at 10:01:09, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 30, 2001 at 07:22:24, Alvaro Polo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>>In a recent interview Kramnik states that "We are in a very interesting phase,
>>>>>when the strength of the best GMs and that of the best chess engines run by the
>>>>>best processors are about equal."
>>>>>
>>>>>I know that this point (machines being GM strenght or nor) has been debated
>>>>>again and again and I don't intend to post a troll. I would just like to know if
>>>>>the consensus now among chess programmers is wether Kramnik is right or not. For
>>>>>instance, I remember Bob Hyatt saying that computers are really 2450, etc. But
>>>>>software evolves, CPU power evolves and perhaps now there is agreement that
>>>>>machines are finally GM strenght?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>Alvaro Polo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I personally think my estimate is still pretty close.  Computers have two
>>>>serious problems:
>>>>
>>>>1.  opening books.  They depend on a human to "play the game" of choosing good
>>>>and bad openings.  This leaves them highly vulnerable to opening preparation and
>>>>traps.  Particularly when you practice against one copy and then play another
>>>>copy which doesn't have the 'learning' from the practice games.
>>>
>>>I think it is unfair to use this way to decide about the level of chess
>>>programs.
>>>
>>>I am more interested to know the results of programs when the opponent cannot
>>>get a copy of the program.
>>
>>Then don't give them a copy.  But what happens in a 24+ game match?  The
>>computer does well at the beginning, but by the end has horrendous problems
>>as the human discovers its weaknesses.
>>
>>you only have to watch on ICC to see this happen against _all_ programs, by
>>top IM and GM players...
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>When Deep thought and Deep blue played against humans the opponents could not
>>>get a copy of the program so I see no reason to let them to get a copy of the
>>>programs before the game.
>>
>>You don't need a copy of the program to bust it.  You only need to prepare
>>openings that against _other_ programs produce advantages.  Some traps are
>>quite easy to spring when you know your opponent is a computer and will likely
>>take any pawn that is offered.
>
>It is not so simple
>
>Junior sacrificed material in the games against Fritz and it is not going to
>take any pawn that is offered if it plays against kramnik.
>
>Uri


So you don't think it has any discernable weaknesses?  I'm not a GM but I
can look at 10 games and find a major one.  I do it to my program _all_ the
time.  Of course, I'm not bedazzled by all the hype that impresses many others.




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