Author: Chris Carson
Date: 07:20:00 06/23/01
Go up one level in this thread
On June 23, 2001 at 08:09:04, Mogens Larsen wrote: >On June 23, 2001 at 06:34:43, Bruce Moreland wrote: > >>If people want to say that computers cheat or whatever, who cares. There's no >>way around this, and that's the intent of people who say this. Fine, computers >>cheat, because they can't grab a piece with their fingers, compose a sonnet, be >>emotionally touched by a baby's smile, or go potty. Stipulated. I don't care. >> >>I think blind people cheat, too. Blind people shouldn't be allowed to play >>chess unless they move the pieces themselves, and the touch move rule still >>applies. And since they can't see the board, and they can't touch the pieces, >>they have to figure out where their opponent moved by *sound* and *smell*. If >>they can't do this, tough luck, because lord knows that the game of chess is >>completely destroyed unless you reach out and touch the piece with your own >>fingers. >> >>By the way, there are FIDE rules for blind people, and the computers play by >>them. A blind person can have a person there who helps them move pieces, and >>tells them where things have been moved. > >That is what you might call the cheapo defence. Of course there's no real >problem with computers being unable to move pieces around. The real issue is >external aids like opening books and endgame tables. It's cheating according to >FIDE rules no matter how you look at it. And also with my understanding of >computer chess. Computer chess is a program capable of calculating chess moves >from start to finish period. That may be a naive and silly layman's definition, >but I think it makes intuitive sense. So Tapio is essentially right. > >Does that mean that output can't be stored and that external files are >forbidden? No, it doesn't mean that. A learning chess program makes perfect >sense compared to the human conception of chess. My imagination may not be that >extensive, but I can imagine a program learning opening moves, positional >patterns and piece values through experience. That already exists AFAIK. So why >cheat? And let's avoid the "You can't check it anyway , so it's mute.." >argument. > >Mogens. FIDE does have rules for "Play with Computers", none of the things you mention are "outlawed" by FIDE: http://handbook.fide.com/handbook.cgi?level=E&level=E3 E.III. Regulations for Play with Computers Playing Rules for Computers Note: In these rules, the words "he, him" and "his" are used indiscriminately to include "she" and "her". 1. General 1.1 The game shall be played according to FIDE Laws on a tournament chess board and using a tournament clock. (GA '93) The official clock takes over from the built in computer clock. 1.2 The operator is regarded as "the computer's player" except that Article 7 - "The Touched Piece" does not apply to the operator. 1.3 After the player has made a move, the operator will key it into the computer and record it on the tournament scoresheet. 1.4 After the computer has indicated a move, the operator will play it on the tournament board, start the player's clock and record the move on the tournament scoresheet. 2. Time Limits 2.1 The move rate set on the computer should allow for the time which will be taken by the operator in transferring moves from and to the tournament board. 2.2 If the computer is becoming short of time, the operator may select a faster move rate which must be kept until the time control has been passed. The operator may then return the computer to the move rate required to reach the next time control. Other variations from the preset parameters are not permitted. 2.3 The operator may not force the computer to move. 3. Rights and Duties of the Operator 3.1 The operator must obey each instruction of the computer. 3.2 The operator may accept or refuse the player's offer of a draw as provided in the FIDE laws. The player may suggest that the computer should resign, and the operator may resign on behalf of the computer. In each case, before deciding, the operator may consult, in the presence of the arbiter, a previously nominated person accepted by the arbiter. 3.3 Only if the computer itself so instructs him may the operator offer a draw, or claim a draw by repetition. 3.4 The operator may change cartridges or other memory only on instructions from the computer. 3.5 If the computer is sealing a move, the arbiter may ask the player to withdraw temporarily to a position from which he cannot see the computer's display of the move to be sealed. The arbiter must check that the instructed move has been recorded on the score sheet. The operator is responsible for maintaining the security of the move indicated on the computer display. At the time of the resumption of the game it is the responsibility of the operator to ensure that the position has been entered correctly on the computer. 4. Prizes (GA '93) Computers taking part in human tournaments can only receive special computer prizes, if any. Neither FIDE or USCF (the two organizations I have written and talked with) ban any part of the "program", books, end game table bases, learnig bases, ... are all accepted. FIDE will not allow a game to be rated when played against a computer. IMO Bruce's arguments make sense. You are entitled to your opinion. Best Regarda, Chris Carson
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