Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 08:28:54 08/30/01
Go up one level in this thread
On August 30, 2001 at 10:20:12, Mark Young wrote: >On August 30, 2001 at 09:51:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 30, 2001 at 08:50:52, Mark Young wrote: >> >>>It has been suggested here that programs have made little progress in the last >>>10 years other then hardware speed. Here is the list of top programs 6 years >>>ago. Does anyone really think a program of 4, 6 or 10 years ago running on >>>modern but equal hardware would have a chance of beating a Junior 7, Deep Fritz, >>>Chess Tiger in a match. I think someone is pulling our legs. >> >> >>I think someone can't read. "slow and steady" is not equal to "little" >>I _clearly_ said that "there has been no revolutionary ideas in computer chess >>in a long time. progress has been slow and steady." >> >>How you make the giant leap to "little progress" is a mystery only you can >>answer. > >You will answer it for my Bob! Here is your Quote and the full text. > >Bob's Statement: >"Part of the progress has been due >to incremental changes to chess engines/evaluations/etc, part has been due to >the hardware speed advances. Probably more of the latter than the former, if >the truth is known..." > > OK... I give up. Where did I say "there has been little progress in software over the past 10 years or so."?? The above seems to be exactly what I have been saying for many years. Slow and steady progress in the software, with more rapid progress in the hardware speeds. So again, please answer _the question_ and show me where I said there had been little software progress in the past 10 years. You haven't shown that so far. > >"Based on what? Top programs of today _still_ seem to be unable to understand >simple chess concepts like the pawn majority we have been discussing in another >thread. I discovered, by bits and pieces, some of the knowledge in deep >thought, and it was not "small" at all. Everyone assumes that the micros are >much smarter... and that us old supercomputer guys simply depended on raw speed >to win games. If you look at the game Cray Blitz vs Joe Sentef, from 1981, >you will find a position that many programs today will blow, and that programs >of 5 years ago would totally blow (bishop + wrong rook pawn ending knowledge). >We weren't "fast and dumb" at all. Neither was DT, DB or DB2. Fast, yes. But >definitely not "dumb". The "intelligence" of todays programs is mostly myth >brought on by fast hardware that searches deep enough to cover for some of the >positional weakness the programs have." > >"I've said this _many_ times in the past... I don't believe there have been >more than a small number of "revolutionary" ideas in computer chess in the last >35 years. Hashing was certainly one. Perhaps null-move another although it >is not clear that you must use null-move to be competitive as Rebel shows (and >the DT/DB/DB2 machines as well). Iterative deepening with full-width search >is another. Extensions are collectively another one, some more-so than others. >Perhaps EGTBs is the most recent one. Everything else has been slow, methodical >progress, something many won't like to hear. Part of the progress has been due >to incremental changes to chess engines/evaluations/etc, part has been due to >the hardware speed advances. Probably more of the latter than the former, if >the truth is known..." > > > > > >> >> >>> >>>If the suggestion that programs have not progressed much is correct, then we >>>have been suckered by all programmers who offer us so called better and stronger >>>version of their programs. >>> >>> >>> >>>THE SSDF RATING LIST 1995-11-26 >>>46104 games played by 146 computers >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Rating + - Games Won >>> Oppo >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------ --- --- ----- --- >>> ---- >>> 1 MChess Pro 5.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2458 45 -42 284 67% >>> 2332 >>> 2 Genius 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2436 33 -31 498 66% >>> 2318 >>> 3 Rebel 7.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2416 36 -34 416 63% >>> 2325 >>> 4 Rebel 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2413 39 -38 340 61% >>> 2334 >>> 5 Hiarcs 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2409 38 -37 357 62% >>> 2325 >>> 6 MChess Pro 4.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2381 36 -36 376 56% >>> 2338 >>> 7 Rebel 7.0 486/50-66 MHz 2371 43 -41 288 62% >>> 2282 >>> 8 Fritz 3.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2370 35 -34 419 58% >>> 2311 >>> 9 Genius 3.0 486/50-66 MHz 2366 27 -26 750 65% >>> 2255 >>> 10 R30 v. 2.5 2357 79 -64 131 80% >>> 2122 >>> 11 Mephisto Genius 2.0 486/50-66 MHz 2343 26 -25 757 60% >>> 2272 >>> 12 WChess 1.06 Pentium 90 MHz 2327 36 -36 380 47% >>> 2350 >>> 13 MChess Pro 4.0 486/50-66 MHz 2324 27 -27 666 57% >>> 2278 >>> 14 Hiarcs 3.0 486/50-66 MHz 2311 28 -28 626 55% >>> 2273 >>> 15 Rebel 6.0 486/50-66 MHz 2310 26 -26 724 58% >>> 2254 >>> 16 Chess Machine 30-32 MHz Schroder 3.1 2306 32 -30 546 68% >>> 2175 >>> 17 Meph Genius 68 030 33 MHz 2302 53 -52 179 56% >>> 2257 >>> 17 WChess 1.03 486/50-66 MHz 2302 30 -30 538 49% >>> 2312 >>> 19 Ch.Machine 30 MHz King 2.0 aggr/R30 off 2301 22 -22 1070 67% >>> 2173 >>> 20 Chessmaster 4000 486/50-66 MHz 2295 34 -33 462 66% >>> 2175 >>> 21 Chess Genius 1.0 486/50-66 MHz 2291 26 -26 736 57% >>> 2241 >>> 22 MChess Pro 3.5 486/50-66 MHz 2280 26 -26 731 56% >>> 2236 >>> 23 Mephisto Gideon Pro 486/50-66 MHz 2275 35 -34 421 62% >>> 2187 >>> 24 MChess Pro 3.12 486/50-66 MHz 2268 36 -34 438 69% >>> 2125 >>> 25 Fritz 3.0 486/50-66 MHz 2265 26 -25 747 56% >>> 2225 >>> 26 Chess Genius 1.0 486/33 MHz 2252 33 -33 443 51% >>> 2244 >>> 27 Mephisto Vancouver 68030 36 MHz 2234 37 -34 451 73% >>> 2059 >>> 28 MChess Pro 3.12 486/33 MHz 2231 50 -48 208 60% >>> 2157 >>> 29 Kallisto 1.82-1.83 486/50-66 MHz 2227 26 -26 742 48% >>> 2244 >>> 30 Berlin Pro 68 020 24 MHz 2218 28 -27 676 63% >>> 2123 >>> 31 Kasparov SPARC 20 MHz 2213 28 -27 639 55% >>> 2174 >>> 32 Mephisto RISC 1 MB ARM 2 14 MHz 2206 23 -22 978 60% >>> 2133 >>> 33 Hiarcs Master 2.0 486/33 MHz 2205 46 -46 229 51% >>> 2196 >>> 34 Saitek RISC 2500 ARM2 14 MHz 128K 2196 23 -23 935 59% >>> 2132 >>> 34 Chess Machine Schroder 512K ARM2 16MHz 2196 27 -26 703 62% >>> 2112 >>> 36 Chess Machine The King 512K ARM2 16MHz 2179 32 -32 472 56% >>> 2139 >>> 37 Mephisto Montreux ARM 14 MHz 512K 2174 51 -46 238 72% >>> 2007 >>> 38 Mephisto Vancouver 68020 12 MHz 2163 24 -23 935 68% >>> 2027 >>> 39 Socrates 3.0 486/33 MHz 2145 49 -50 203 47% >>> 2166 >>> 40 Fritz 2.0 486/33 MHz 2138 30 -31 527 45% >>> 2172 >>> 41 Fidelity Elite 68030 32 MHz (vers.9) 2121 40 -37 372 73% >>> 1952 >>> 41 Mephisto Berlin 68 000 12 MHz 2121 25 -25 805 59% >>> 2059 >>> 43 Mephisto Vancouver 68000 12 MHz 2104 23 -22 971 57% >>> 2056 >>> 44 Novag Sapphire H8 10 MHz 2088 25 -25 787 52% >>> 2071 >>> 45 Hiarcs Master 1.0 486/33 MHz 2073 48 -48 214 48% >>> 2089 >>> 46 Fritz 1.0 486/33 MHz 2042 48 -47 215 55% >>> 2009 >>> 47 Nimzo 2.2.1 486/33 MHz 2036 46 -47 229 42% >>> 2091 >>> 48 Zarkov 3.0 486/25-33 MHz 2032 46 -48 232 39% >>> 2111 >>> 49 Rex Chess 2.3 386/25-33 MHz 2029 65 -62 126 59% >>> 1964 >>> 50 Kasparov Brute Force H8 10 MHz 2019 24 -24 860 47% >>> 2044 >>> 51 Novag Diablo 68000 16 MHz 2008 21 -22 1080 41% >>> 2072 >>> 52 Fidelity Mach III 68000 16 MHz 1994 14 -14 2404 52% >>> 1980 >>> 53 Complete Chess System 486/33 MHz 1986 47 -47 221 47% >>> 2008 >>> 54 Mephisto MM 5 6502 5 MHz 1981 20 -20 1264 49% >>> 1985 >>> 55 Kasparov President/GK-2100 H8 10 MHz 1975 29 -30 558 47% >>> 1997 >>> 56 Mephisto Polgar 6502 5 MHz 1971 17 -17 1693 42% >>> 2031 >>> 57 Mephisto Milano 6502 5 MHz 1966 24 -25 820 42% >>> 2026 >>> 58 Mephisto Amsterdam 68000 12 MHz 1926 22 -22 1020 58% >>> 1872 >>> 59 Kasparov GK-2000 H8 10 MHz 1897 29 -29 593 42% >>> 1953 >>> 60 Mephisto Modena 6502 4 MHz 1896 28 -29 615 41% >>> 1959 >>> 61 Psion Atari 68000 8 MHz 1882 18 -18 1487 44% >>> 1928 >>> 62 Novag Ruby H8 10 MHz 1878 30 -30 545 42% >>> 1934 >>> 63 Saitek Turboking II 6502 5 MHz 1868 23 -23 963 37% >>> 1964 >>> 63 Conchess Plymate Victoria 6502 5.5 MHz 1868 26 -27 701 40% >>> 1941
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