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Subject: Re: Very easy mate to solve.

Author: leonid

Date: 14:32:41 12/29/01

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Hi, Heiner!

I already wrote my response to this portion when I felt that I am not sure if
what I wrote is right. Some description of mate solver corresponded to chess
playing part. Confusion probably came from the fact that I was very little with
my mate solver for the last 4 years. Each time when went back was for putting
into it something that I had already in chess playing program. Will later
indicate where exactly was my mistake.


>For white moves this is the only sorting I do: pulling checking moves to the
>front of the list.

This is very intereting part. Waht exactly you mean when you say "white moves"?
Probably you wanted to say for the side that should find mate. Do you really
have attacking and defending side going into different move sorting (alignment)?

In my program (never mind what side was initially asked to look for mate) all
"move sorting" for two colors (for two move sortings) goes in identical way.
Reason for identical search (at least in my mind) is in the fact that defending
side also will look for many possible mates during entire search. Each time when
"defensive side" will respond with mate, offensive side will stop searching.
This will speed entire hunt for mate.

>> No material evaluation ever done but something close to this
>>exist. Just after "first alignment" that was done in move generator (checking
>>moves are put there as first to go) come second aligment.
>
>It is most probably more efficient to do this already as part of the
>move generator (I have done that many years ago).  Currently Chest does it
>as a separate function, to make the move generator less complex.

I found that it was more effective for me to do both things inside of one move
generator. Move generator mate a search for general vulnerability for opposit
king and use this data later during the production of all legal moves.

I do have other specialized move generators but the above generator is the most
in demand. It is identical for mate solver and chess playing part inside of my
program.

>> Each move that take
>>some enemy piece, or make promotion, is aligned after expected gained value in
>>very rough way. For instance, taken of knight and bishop are not differentiated.
>>Taken of queen and every pawn promotion is regarded as equal.
>
>Well, yes, that is similar to what I do for black moves.
>Capturing yields the usual material values, and checking is like capturing
>a rook.  The amount of flight squares around the black king is also used:
>each flight is worth a pawn.

Have nothing like your attention to "flight squares" around the king. It could
be that here is the point that make speed difference for us in lower plys but it
could be something else.

>If the depth is greater than 2, much more complicated things are done.
>Checking moves are differentiated whether they give away material or not,
>and the branching factor for white in the next two moves is estimated,
>in order to minimize their product.

Completely different!

>> On the most responsive plys
>
>"most responsive" is near the leaves?

I am afraid to make my next mistake, even if I have seen already few times this
expression. For me "most responsive" plys are the plys on other side from
initial position of search. The most specialized are that bottom two plys. In
total they are 6.

>> two best moves are saved and used for "second aligment". One
>>move is "active" and second is "passive". Active move - move that is ckecking
>>move, or one that bring material advantage. Passive move - move other that
>>active.

Here was my mistake! For mate solver second sorting put active at the head and
passive at the end, just like was said, but best move is only one. In chess
playing part I have separate savings for active and passive move.

>Is that some king of "killer move" heuristic?

Here once again I must take care. Will give rustic and simple explanation. Best
move in mate solver is the move that lead to mate. Previously found best move is
used for putting the most successful at the head of chain. Each best move for
its ply. Here also one important moment. If previous best move was "passive
move" it will not jump to the head of move chain over "active moves". It will go
only at the head of passive moves.

>How exactly are these moves "used"?
>What exactly triggers the saving of another move (replacement)?

Only when next move that lead to mate for this ply ply was found. Only then
previous best move will be replaced.

>I don't have such a thing. Might be worth trying.

It could be that my previous explanation was obscure. Now it is exact and I hope
more clear to read.

>>Is this really close to what you have?
>
>It matches my basic sorting, yes.
>With more depth to go, Chest's function is much more complex, and not
>easy to explain.  It is a little "magic" in that function.
>For white's moves you appear to do a bit more than I do.

Probably here you speak about attacking side but not about white side.


>>Even if I wanted few times to read what you have done, I still never make my
>>reading. Partially it is because I am lazy for every possible reading but even
>>more so because I don't remember any more C language.
>
>Even if you were fluent in C, and would have the time and motivation to read
>it, I doubt you would understand much of it just from the sources.
>I myself have a hard time to re-read it.  :-(

Ha, ha, ha!!!! It look like myself going to some parts of my program that I not
touched for years. Very often it is very obscure to me what I wrote there. This
is why I leave a lot of description. Problem only when you change it one
thousand of times. Finally some old description is left and make everything very
strange when you read it.

>My co-author Holger Pause developped the complex part of this move sorting
>by try and error, until he was satisfied with the results for a certain
>benchmark.  That way some of the things in it are hard to explain, beyond
>"it works well that way".

All my move sortings was done only after statistical data. Nothing was left to
my personal preferences. Even my mistake about "best passive" and "best active"
in my mate solver, probably, come from the fact that I tried them in mate solver
but came later to something else.

Cheers,
Leonid.

>Cheers,
>Heiner



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