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Subject: Re: Questions for Mr. Hyatt about Deep Blue

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 09:24:43 02/18/02

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On February 18, 2002 at 11:46:12, Aaron Gordon wrote:

>Actually you can hit 1M nps in Crafty on a regular old AMD Thunderbird at
>1.65GHz. That means you'd need ~330GHz to hit 200mnps. Of course if you were to
>run a system such as this (say, 256 cpu's) in a cluster then you'd lose a heck
>of a lot of NPS. Also lets say we used Myrinet and TTL_Papers and 'total' gained
>a speedup of 128 x one cpu with 256 cpu's. I'm not sure how realistic that
>number is but it 'seems' alright if you consider using an experienced cluster
>designer along with good code. This will of course put you at 128mnps using the
>1.65GHz tbirds. By the time you get something like this built there will be 2GHz
>AMD Thoroughbred cpu's (0.13 micron AthlonXP's).

Figure speedup = 1 + (N-1)*.7 for reasonable numbers of processors.  I
don't know that that will hold for N very large, say 128.

Also, even if a CPU could run at 330ghz, we need a memory breakthrough or
else it won't be 330 times faster than a 1ghz cpu today.




>
>If you figure 1 * 2 / 1.65 then that 2GHz XP would put you at 1.21212~Mnps. That
>x 128 = 155.15Mnps. While not as fast as Deep Blue I think most of todays
>programs should outplay Deep Blue with a little tuning (like cutting back on the
>selectivity/pruning a bit). In the case of CT14 & Fritz7 actually running at
>this sort of nps then most definately it will exceed Deep Blue strength. Perhaps
>even around 50-80mnps.


There is a _huge_ difference between what Deep Blue "knew" and what the two
programs you mention "know".  And knowledge is important against strong
human players...




>
>Crafty at ~155mnps should be very close Deep Blue also. If anyone tried to
>compare Crafty with 1M nps at 2500 ELO they're nuts. I've seen people doing this
>for years now in ELO lists (perhaps as a baseline). I've seen people using old
>crafty's on slow hardware & rate it 2500.. later on they get faster hardware & a
>newer, stronger crafty.. guess what? 2500. Now we've got 1GHz+ cpu's and Crafty
>18.13 destroy's 16.19 for example... yet guess what? Still 2500. I don't think
>so. At 1M nps 18.13 must be at the very least 2600. From what Hyatt says Deep
>Thought was ~2650 at 2M nps. If you consider a 50-60 increase with Crafty going
>from 1M to 2M nps thats 2650-2660 right there.

You are extrapolating based on comp vs comp.  That is not a reasonable way
to try to figure out how a program will do vs _humans_.  The parameters are
way different.




>
>Aside from the math this is my opinion. I would love to hear any replies on
>this matter, suggestions perhaps, etc.
>
>
>On February 17, 2002 at 23:07:02, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>>11. also if you say 10 is true, could you just speculate on what mhz it would
>>>take using the type of processors we are used to today(amd and intel)(not sun or
>>>alpha), to be able to play on the Deep Blue level?
>>
>>I really can't say.  For example, 2.0 ghz is enough to get Crafty to 1M
>>nps or so.  Therefore, assuming everything scales linearly (memory speed
>>and so forth) then 400ghz would get me to that 200M nodes per second.  That
>>is a _long_ way off.  If it actually happens
>>>read.
>>>kburcham



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