Author: Sune Fischer
Date: 15:58:29 07/12/02
Go up one level in this thread
On July 12, 2002 at 18:23:47, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On July 12, 2002 at 17:15:13, Sune Fischer wrote: > >>On July 12, 2002 at 16:38:20, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On July 12, 2002 at 11:52:13, Dan Wulff wrote: >>> >>>>>> I play white, you play black. The game goes: 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1 Ng8 3. Nf3 Nf6 >>>>>>4. Ng1 Ng8 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Ng1 Ng8 7. Nf3 Nf6 ... It's perfectly legal because 3rd >>>>>>repetition must be claimed by the players. In this game, either you or me can >>>>>>claim draw by third repetition whenever we want, with or without making a move, >>>>>>because there have been some positions (4 in this case) repeated 3 or more >>>>>>times. >>>>>> I'm 100% sure about this point. >>>>>> >>>>>You're right. Either something changed in the rules over time or my memory is >>>>>failing me ;-). From the FIDE rules: >>>>> >>>>>'9.2 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when >>>>>the same position, for at least the third time (no necessarily by sequential >>>>>repetition of moves) >>>>>a) is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and >>>>>declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or >>>>>b) has just appeard, and the player claiming the draw has the move. >>>>> >>>>>Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the >>>>>move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the >>>>>possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. >>>>>Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant >>>>>can no longer be captured or if the right to castle has been changed temporarily >>>>>or permanently.' >>>> >>>>You are wrong........ Read the above again: "is about to appear" or "has just >>>>appeared". This implies that you CANNOT claim the draw if you play on from the >>>>3rd repetition, and for example claim a draw ten moves later. >>>> >>>>Greetings >>>> >>>>Dan Wulff >>>>(The Gandalf Team) >>> >>> >>>This is correct. You can claim it before you move if the position has been >>>repeated 3 times. You can claim it after you move if the move causes the >>>position to be repeated for the third time. >> >>No, you have to claim it _before_ you make the move, because only the person _in >>the move_ can claim it. If it is you who repeates the second time, then it is >>your opponent who can claim the draw, you had your chance before you made your >>move. >> >>-S. > >In my old rule book, the definition of "when is your move completed?" was >quite clear. You can do either of the following to claim a repetition: OK, but please lets not discuss old books, lets look at the present FIDE rules only, or there will be no end to the discussion:) I think the rules state, that you have to be _in the move_ when claiming the draw. Moving the piece makes it your opponents turn, ie. you indicate by making the move and continuing the game that you do not wish to claim the draw. Perhaps it is a bit silly that you are not allowed to make the move and stop the clock, but if it's not mentioned in the rules... The reason is, I guess, that a 2 fold repetition can only be seen on the scoresheet. The position on the board doesn't convey the relevant information. -S. >1. You can claim that the position on the board before you move is a >three-fold repetition, that you have been in this same position three >times in the past. You can make the claim, stop the clock and ask the >TD to verify your claim. > >2. You can say "I claim a draw by three-fold repetition after I make the >move XXX." You do _not_ make the move, you do stop the clock and call the >TD over to verify the claim. > >IE in either case you really don't make a move on the board, you simply >express your intention to do so in the second case and then call the TD to >comfirm the claim. > >Once you make the move and hit the clock, your opportunity to claim the >draw is _gone_. It is no longer your move. Your opponent might choose to >make a claim, if he can, or he might choose to make a move that makes it >impossible for you to claim a repetition on your next move... his choice. > >I don't know if the rules for claiming a draw have changed or not, but that >is how they were expressed when I was playing actively and when I ran a lot >of Scholastic-type events at the university chess club many years ago... > >However I am _certain_ that you can claim a three-fold repetition if either >(a) the position before you move has occurred three times in the game; or >(b) the position _after_ the move you intend to play will have occurred three >times in the game. You can make a valid claim for _either_ circumstance, so >long as you don't make a move and press the clock. And I think that in the >case of newer rules, you don't even need to press the clock to "end your move" >which is why you don't actually make the move that would cause the repetition. >You inform the TD of your intention to both make it _and_ claim a draw. > > > >> >>>If you pass on making the claim, >>>then you can't make it later unless the position is repeated _again_ (the 4th >>>time for example).
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