Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:54:31 08/31/02
Go up one level in this thread
On August 31, 2002 at 22:06:52, Christophe Theron wrote: >On August 31, 2002 at 21:11:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On August 31, 2002 at 04:00:57, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On August 31, 2002 at 03:26:01, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>> >>>>>This is exactly the case for Junior and Fritz and they simply do not care about >>>>>small improvement that they can get. >>>> >>>>That, I don't believe. >>>> >>>>>They know that there are positions when the program cannot see simple tactics >>>>>but they do not care to fix it. >>>>> >>>>>There are positions when Junior cannot see simple tactics and Amir ban knows >>>>>about it but he did not fix it at least not in Junior7(some years after he got >>>>>the information). >>>> >>>>That's probably because it would hurt the program overall. I'm sure he does >>>>what he thinks is best for overall program strength. >>> >>>I believe that the reason for Junior is that it is not >>>easy to fix it and be sure that you do not generate >>>other bugs but I do not think that it is impossible >>>to do it. >>> >>>I believe that in most cases >>>professional do not work harder than the amaturs. >> >>they will be happy with such statements... >> >>Most obviously won't be able to answer that because they don't like >>to work and prefer to stay on the beach instead :) > > >Hey, I'm reading this, you know! ;-) > >It's not for the beach. It's for the girls. ;-) > > > > > >>>>>There are positions when Fritz cannot see simple mate because of null move >>>>>pruning. >>>> >>>>I'm sure Frans Morsch is well aware of that too. >>> >>>Yes but he does nothing to fix it and it does more mistakes than other programs >>>because of null move pruning. >>>I see no reason to use null move pruning after the first >>>move of the pv but this is exactly what Fritz does. >>> >>>I already posted the analysis when Fritz finds the right move Nc6 >>>that is winning(white is in zunzwang) but the score >>>drop every iteration because it does not want to analyze a move that threats >>>nothing. >>> >>>Here is the relevant position again >>> >>>[D]1n6/1P6/8/2P5/p3kp1p/6p1/1P4K1/4N3 b - - 0 1 >> >>>This position can happen in games >>> >>>Deep Fritz(black) played against Junior7(White). >>> >>>Junior7 already saw a score of 11.40 against itself when it played 54.c5 but >>>Deep fritz blundered because of pruning the line that it wanted to play. >> >>any fritz7 comments instead of only the completely outdated deepfritz? >>of course i tried fritz7 and it also fails miserably. >> >>Obviously you need to use nullmove first move after pv always >>when you don't use alphabeta, but MTD instead. > > >That's a clever observation. > >So you think Fritz is using MTD(f)? Interesting question. Deep Blue essentially used it in the chess hardware, which means the last software ply was a sort of mtd(f) search. > > > > Christophe > > > > > >>>I remember from analyzing another study that >>>this kind of behaviour is in Fritz for years >>>(Fritz3,Fritz4,Fritz5) >>>and I wonder why Fritz insist to use null move in >>>the wrong way(I do not know about Deep Fritz7 and this analysis >>>is with the first Deep Fritz that came after fritz6) >>> >>>Here is the game it is taken from copied from Deep Fritz's >>>Gui(if you look in the line that is not the main line you can see >>>54.c5 and the horrible blunder that Deep Fritz did in the game). >>> >>>Luba kristol - Uri blass [B80] >>>[Blass,U] >>> >>> 32768kB, F5book.ctg. PentiumIII >>> 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 13.11-14.11 2...d6 15.11-15.11 3.d4 16.11-19.11 3...cxd4 4.Nxd4 >>>Nf6 white 4 days black 0 days 5.Nc3 22.11-23.11 5...a6 26.11-26.11 6.f3 >>>29.11-29.11 6...e6 1.12-3.12 7.Be3 5.12-7.12 7...b5 12.12-12.12 8.Qd2 >>>14.12-15.12 8...Nbd7 18.12-18.12 9.g4 21.12-26.12 9...h6 28.12-4.1 10.0-0-0 >>>8.1-10.1 10...Bb7 14.1-16.1 11.Bd3 17.1-18.1 11...Ne5 21.1-26.1 12.Rhe1 31.1-1.2 >>>12...b4 4.2-12.2 13.Nce2 d5 vacation-7.3 14.Ng3 9.3-18.3 14...dxe4 20.3-1.4 >>>15.Bxe4 Nxe4 15.4-16.4 16.Nxe4 17.4-18.4 16...Bxe4 22.4-23.4 17.fxe4 >>>25.4-28.4-1.5 17...Bc5 1.5-2.5 18.Qe2 4.5-8.5 18...Qb6 9.5-13.5 19.Kb1 15.5-17.5 >>>19...0-0 18,5-20.5 20.Rd2 22.5-23.5 20...a5 24.5-29.5 -0.63/17 1:47:34 >>>21.Red1 31.5-1.6 21...Rfd8 [21...Qa6 22.Qxa6 Rxa6 23.Nf5 Rc6 24.Bxc5 Rxc5 25.Ne3 >>>Kh7] 22.h4 Qa6 23.Qxa6 -0.42/18 14:59 Rxa6 -0.72/15 2:37 24.Nxe6 (Nb3) >>>-0.59/18 8:10 24...Rxd2 -1.06/17 7:35 25.Rxd2 -0.81/19 6:38 Rxe6 >>>-0.97/17 11:32 [25...Be7 26.Nc7 -0.53/19 12:51 Rf6 -0.72/16 8:00 27.Rf2 >>>-0.60/20 29:50 Rc6 -0.81/16 8:39 28.Nd5 -0.83/20 25:21 Bxh4 -0.78/16 >>>12:36 29.Rf5 (Re2) -0.86/20 26:27 29...Nxg4 -1.06/16 10:24 30.Bb6 >>>-0.89/20 21:14 a4 -1.22/16 20:40 31.Ba5 -0.90/20 29:44 Re6 -1.16/16 >>>16:06 32.Bxb4 -0.88/20 24:11 Rxe4 -1.16/16 18:54 33.a3 -0.92/20 8:56 >>>Be1 (Rd4) -1.13/15 10:55 34.Kc1 (c3) -0.71/19 7:53 34...g6 -1.13/16 >>>13:17 35.Rf1 -0.85/20 14:54 Bxb4 (Bh4) -1.03/16 9:33 36.axb4 -0.60/18 >>>4:04 f5 (Kg7) -1.03/16 12:07 37.b5 -0.62/20 5:49 Kf7 -1.13/16 11:28 >>>38.Rf4 (b6) -0.77/20 12:14 38...Rxf4 -1.34/17 6:18 39.Nxf4 -0.80/21 1:55 >>> Ne5 (Nf6) -1.41/19 7:12 40.b6 -1.01/23 6:13 Nc6 (Nd7) -1.47/19 11:28 >>>41.Kd2 (b7) -0.70/21 7:05 41...h5 (g5) -1.56/18 10:55 42.Nd3 -0.75/22 >>>10:53 Ke6 (h4) -1.63/17 8:29 43.Nf4+ (Nc5+) -0.78/22 10:37 43...Kf6 >>>-1.78/18 6:09 44.Ke1 (b7) -0.78/21 5:17 44...h4 -2.00/18 4:56 45.Kf2 >>>(Kf1) -0.89/22 6:56 45...g5 -2.03/18 5:06 46.Nd3 -1.03/21 7:01 f4 (Ke6) >>> -2.19/18 6:01 47.Kg1 (b7) -1.11/21 5:35 47...Kf5 -2.28/19 7:21 48.b7 >>>-1.46/22 4:53 Nb8 -2.44/18 4:32 49.Kf2 (c4) -1.83/23 3:23 49...g4 >>>-3.75/19 2:24 50.Kg2 -2.12/23 5:35 g3 -3.63/20 3:48 51.c3 -4.98/24 >>>6:47 Ke4 -4.25/20 1:27 52.Ne1 -5.28/23 11:05 Nd7 (Nc6) -1.94/20 14:33 >>>53.c4 -6.18/24 4:11 Nb8 -0.88/19 3:45 54.c5 -11.40/24 2:56 Ke3 (Nc6) >>>-0.88/17 3:53 (54...Nc6) 55.Nc2+ -0.68/20 1:02 Kd3 -1.09/19 5:10 56.c6 >>>-0.91/20 1:21 Nxc6 -0.81/18 9:24 57.Nb4+ -0.55/20 5:24 Ke2 (Ke3) >>>-0.56/18 7:20 58.Nxc6 -0.55/20 5:27 f3+ -0.53/16 4:51 59.Kh3 -0.55/21 >>>16:44 f2 -1.06/15 1:53 60.b8Q -0.56/19 2:43 f1Q+ -0.75/13 1:15 61.Kxh4 >>> -0.56/18 1:30 Qf6+ (Qh1+) 0.00/13 2:36 62.Kxg3 -0.56/18 6:05 Qf3+ >>>(Qxc6) -0.59/13 1:17 ] 26.Bxc5 -0.84/20 7:33 Nxg4 -1.00/16 5:24 27.Kc1 >>>(Rd8+) -0.89/20 34:55 27...Rxe4 -1.00/16 12:39 28.Rd4 (Bb6) -0.81/20 >>>43:54 28...Rxd4 (Nf6) -0.97/17 7:38 29.Bxd4 -0.88/22 5:23 h5 (f6) >>>-1.19/19 10:42 30.Kd1 -0.70/25 17:29 f6 -1.00/20 11:05 31.Bb6 -0.55/24 >>>8:18 a4 -1.09/20 11:52 32.Bc5 -0.55/25 18:40 g5 -0.97/20 12:24 33.hxg5 >>> -0.41/24 7:58 fxg5 -0.97/19 6:44 34.Ke2 -0.39/25 10:15 h4 (Kf7) >>>-1.03/19 10:14 35.Bxb4 -0.35/23 5:20 Kf7 -0.78/19 11:57 36.Bd2 (b3) >>>-0.26/23 10:07 36...Kg6 -0.97/18 6:31 37.b3 (b4) -0.26/24 10:31 37...h3 >>>-0.81/20 12:17 38.Kf1 -0.16/22 2:57 axb3 -0.91/17 18:09 39.cxb3 >>>-0.11/23 6:33 Ne5 (Kf5) -0.47/18 20:55 40.a4 0.00/23 6:19 Nf3 -0.94/19 >>>5:02 41.Ba5 0.00/24 5:51 g4 (Nd4) -0.16/20 11:29 42.Kf2 0.00/24 4:06 >>>Kf5 (Nd4) 0.12/21 9:13 43.Bc7 -0.06/23 1:36 Nd2 (Ke6) 0.00/21 5:05 >>>44.a5 0.01/25 6:19 Ne4+ 0.00/21 8:11 45.Kg1 -0.14/26 14:45 Nc5 0.00/22 >>> 5:19 46.Bd6 0.00/28 8:03 Na6 0.00/23 6:29 47.Bh2 (Kh2) 0.00/29 3:48 >>>47...Kf6 (Ke4) 0.00/23 4:26 48.Kf2 -0.14/26 5:35 Ke6 (Kf5) 0.00/23 5:07 >>>49.Kg3 0.00/29 4:15 Kd7 (Kd5) 0.00/25 3:51 50.Kxg4 0.00/31 5:21 Kc6 >>>0.00/26 5:12 Line >>> >>> >>>Uri
This page took 0.02 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.