Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 15:21:10 09/10/02
Go up one level in this thread
On September 10, 2002 at 15:53:23, Uri Blass wrote: >On September 10, 2002 at 12:49:43, Rolf Tueschen wrote: > >>On September 10, 2002 at 09:25:57, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On September 10, 2002 at 09:18:50, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>> >>>>On September 10, 2002 at 09:06:27, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>The value of the endgame tablebases in chess is also small and programs probably >>>>>get no more than 20 elo from them. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Researched against human chessplayers? Or from your experience in clean comp vs. >>>>comp practice? >>>> >>>>Rolf Tueschen >>> >>>I do not think that there is a big difference. >> >>I don't know. Nut let's see. >> >> >> >>> >>>based on comp-comp games tablebases changed the results only in minority of >>>the cases. >> >> >>Ok, at least with both sides having tables... or at least input about the >>importance of certain endgames. See below. > >I remember that there was tests when only one programs used tablebases. >There are also commercial programs that do not use tablebases(I am not sure if >the last version of chessmaster or Rebel but clearly previous versions of them >and Hiarcs7 that does not use tablebases is at the same level as hiarcs7.32 that >is using tablebases). >> >> >>> >>>Humans usually do not get simple endgames against computers. >> >> >>This might be true but what does it mean? I'm referring to the fact that the >>leading programs use a feature for the early detection of certain endgame >>possibilities. So progs do not only rely on the tables themselves but also on >>early help for judging much later and only "possible" endgames. At least I >>understood it this way. Now my point is, that if the tables are not allowed, the >>mentioned control is impossible what increases the possibilities to make basic >>mistakes in the middle game. Seems trivial enough. > > >I know but in most cases the games are decided before tablebases are relevant >Tablebases are usually not relevant in the middlegame because there is no >logical line in the tree of the programs that leads to position with 5 or 6 >pieces(if there are few tablebases hits because of some illogical lines in the >search tree they usually change nothing and may only do the program 0.01% >faster). > >Even in games that tablebases are relevant programs in most cases do not blunder >in the relevant positions even without tablebases thanks to search. > >Uri I wouldn't go quite that far. I've seen more than one program, commercial or amateur doesn't matter, enter a dead lost KRP KR ending, and doing so at _their_ option, not because it was forced... Ditto for KNN vs KP...
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