Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 18:00:37 01/23/03
Go up one level in this thread
On January 23, 2003 at 10:44:44, Uri Blass wrote: >On January 23, 2003 at 10:38:45, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 23, 2003 at 02:18:46, Dux Kazer wrote: >> >>>On January 22, 2003 at 21:24:53, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On January 22, 2003 at 14:01:09, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 22, 2003 at 13:02:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On January 22, 2003 at 12:27:56, Dux Kazer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On January 22, 2003 at 12:06:37, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On January 22, 2003 at 11:58:05, Christopher A. Morgan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Bob, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>It shows me the abality of GK to negoiate a rule very favorable to him. >>>>>>>>>It is not at all certain that GK could, over the board, be certain of a >>>>>>>>>draw in a known draw position as determined with tablebases with, at least all >>>>>>>>>5 piece endings, and most likely some six piece endings. Now, in those >>>>>>>>>positions the game will end in a draw, which, in my view, is correct. This >>>>>>>>>does not address the situation where DJ sees a tablebase draw in its search and, >>>>>>>>>if it's losing trys to steer the game to that position. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I like the rule. I do not see any contest between machine and man where >>>>>>>>>the machine looks up its move in a table, and waits for the human to make >>>>>>>>>a mistake. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It is possible the machine could see a tablebase draw which a human would not >>>>>>>>know how to "solve" and thus lose the drawn position. The human would deserve >>>>>>>>the loss. This is the point of the man/machine contest. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh Yes... but let the machine play without the tablebases and it will lose even >>>>>>>simple knight vs rook draw for sure, not to say KRP vs KR.. >>>>>> >>>>>>Not necessarily. Some programs can play krp vs kr pretty well without tables. >>>>>>I have >>>>>>special code to handle just this case, for example. I'm sure others do too. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'd play _anybody_ KR vs KN with crafty having the KN side... and not expect to >>>>>>lose. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Another challenge to human chess players. Hopefully someone bites. I'd like to >>>>>see this one too! >>>>> >>>>>Marvelous. >>>>> >>>>>Rolf Tueschen >>>> >>>>this one is too easy. IE I will play kn vs kr without tables. I'll also >>>>play KQ vs KR without tables playing either side, knowing crafty can win this >>>>ending _easily_ without tables at all. >>>> >>>>I don't think it much of a challenge to avoid losing kr vs kn. Any decent >>>>search depth will find the simple tactics where the knight is lost. >>> >>> I don´t think is that simple.... i know good programmers have special code to >>>handle that kind of ending but at least the engine has to think for itself and >>>of course that is time consuming (so human can use that time for himself right?) >>>and there is always some chance in that case.. i have seen Crafty beaten Fritz >>>many times in Rook vs Knight (of course without table) and not to say so many >>>blitz game where human confuse the machine to go for a dead draw KRPP vs KR!. >> >>Fritz is a bad example. KR vs KN is only won by zugzwang, when the weaker side >>makes a mistake. Fritz is very susceptible to zugzwang positions because of the >>null-move >>search. >> >>I have seen crafty win more than one blitz game KR vs KN without tables. But >>only blitz >>games. At longer time controls, it simply isn't winnable unless the opponent >>makes an outright >>blunder. There are a "few" deep wins that a table might spot. But against a >>human, I don't >>think kr vs kn can be won by the kr side, without the tables, and even with the >>tables, you can >>look at the krkn.tbs file to see that the draws outnumber the wins by a huge >>margin. >> >>KQ vs KR is another example that a program can handle simply and almost >>perfectly with >>a minimal search. > >In both cases you need evaluation that Movei of today does not have. > >In KR vs KN you need to know to keep the knight clode to the king and in KQ vs >KR you need to know that the stronger side needs to reduce the distance between >the kings. > >Uri I can only quote what my program can do. IE it can win KQ vs KR against a program with tables, with just one second per move... The knowledge required is _really_ modest.
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