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Subject: Re: Crafty SMP questions.

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 10:58:11 08/06/03

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On August 06, 2003 at 00:34:40, Matthew Hull wrote:

>On August 06, 2003 at 00:21:09, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On August 06, 2003 at 00:09:32, Slater Wold wrote:
>>
>>>On August 05, 2003 at 23:54:42, Slater Wold wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 05, 2003 at 20:00:44, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 05, 2003 at 19:13:21, Slater Wold wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On August 05, 2003 at 18:38:51, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On August 05, 2003 at 17:30:51, Matthew Hull wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Does Crafty scale above 4 processors?  For example, could crafty utilize all the
>>>>>>>>CPUs on an IBM pSeries 690 7040-681T 32-way?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www-132.ibm.com/content/home/store_IBMPublicUSA/en_US/eServer/pSeries/high_end/690.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>MH
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I didn't have time to look closely.  But it is most likely a NUMA platform,
>>>>>>>which means that Crafty as it exists now is not going to work well on it.  NUMA
>>>>>>>machines require careful attention to what is put where in memory, so that
>>>>>>>often-used data is as close to the physical processor (in terms of access
>>>>>>>latency) as possible.  The current implementation of SMP in Crafty is based
>>>>>>>on pure SMP, where memory is simply shared.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If I ever have time to fiddle with a NUMA machine, I'll probably look at
>>>>>>>fixing the major issue, which is to put split blocks close to each processor,
>>>>>>>and when giving a specific processor a tree to search, using a split block that
>>>>>>>is _close_ to it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I really don't think it is a NUMA machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Advanced symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) up to 32-way", is how the exactly
>>>>>>describe it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And when you go to their 'Clusters' section, this machine isn't mentioned.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>NUMA is not necessarily a "cluster".  There are several machines that are
>>>>>called "SMP" but also use a NUMA approach for memory.  The clue is the price.
>>>>>A real 32-way shared memory system is _really_ expensive.  Cray claimed that
>>>>>50+% of the price of the T932 was in the memory interconnect to support full
>>>>>memory speed to all processors.
>>>>>
>>>>>Of course, I'm not wagering anything on this "hip shot" as to the idea behind
>>>>>the machine, but from what I have seen in past years, anything beyond 8 CPUS
>>>>>is either _way_ expensive, or NUMA.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry, I mispoke myself....scratch that, let's try again.
>>>>
>>>>Reading
>>>>http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/hardware/whitepapers/p690_config.pdf,
>>>>it would appear that it is a true SMP system.
>>>>
>>>>IBM has their own way of doing things, using MCMs and such, with the GX
>>>>controllers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>32 64-bit 1.7Ghz POWER4+ CPUs, 512GB RAM, and Crafty 19.04.  Whew.
>>>
>>>Oh, and..."Pricing for the p690 starts at US$493,386 with an eight-way
>>>configuration featuring Power4+ 1.5 GHz processors, 8 GB of main memory and two
>>>36 GB disk drives with AIX preinstalled."
>>>
>>>Starts...at...half...a...million...dollars...
>>>
>>>That's about $62k per CPU+1GB RAM.  Take off 10% for each CPU+1GB RAM.
>>>
>>>Add 24 CPUs, then add 24GB RAM.  You're at somewhere around $2M.
>>
>>
>>at that price it _could_ be a real SMP platform...
>>
>>And Crafty _should_ scale just fine on it...
>
>
>It looks like an MCM will use memory interleaving for pure SMP.  An MCM can have
>up to 8 processors in it.  A 32-way has 4 MCMs.  But I would assume that a
>32-way is just 4 8-ways just like and 8-way Xeon is just two 4-ways.
>
>MH


RIght...  but that "smells" like a NUMA approach.  IE most likely the 8
processors connected directly to a MCM will have a memory latency of X,
while a processor connected to another MCM (say MCM B) trying to access
memory connected to MCM A will have a latency of X+Q where Q is the MCM-MCM
latency.  That is a classic example of NUMA (Non-uniform memory architecture).



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