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Subject: Re: To check or not to check, this is the quiescence question

Author: José Carlos

Date: 23:28:30 10/13/03

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On October 13, 2003 at 15:02:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On October 13, 2003 at 12:57:04, José Carlos wrote:
>
>>On October 13, 2003 at 12:03:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>
>>>On October 13, 2003 at 11:31:11, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 09:29:47, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>there are very big differences.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>There isn't a big difference if you are only talking about the q-search.
>>>>
>>>>If you do a check, you have to get out and that extends.  If you extend
>>>>on the check you don't extend when you get out and that extends.
>>>>
>>>>It is different in the normal part of the search, because if you extend on
>>>>a check you increase depth by one now.  You might reach the q-search if you
>>>>wait to extend when you escape check.  but in the q-search I don't see how it
>>>>is a "big difference".
>>>
>>>You don't have to apologize for not knowing basic tree math, you're excused.
>>>Had seen already in crafty code that it was done wrong there.
>>>
>>>Yet i had already posted years ago at CCC that if you extend when being checked,
>>>that this is better than when giving the check.
>>>
>>>What delivers more cutoffs for the hashtable:
>>>
>>>A)
>>>Re5+ (5 ply remaining)
>>>Kf7  (5 ply remaining)
>>>Rxa5 (4 ply remaining)
>>>
>>>B)
>>>Re5+ (5 ply remaining)
>>>Kf7  (4 ply remaining)
>>>Rxa5 (4 ply remaining)
>>>
>>>If you can answer that question then you'll know the answer to the basic tree
>>>searching question.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Vincent
>>
>>
>>  Do you cutoff in moves or in positions?
>>  If you cutoff in positions, then you have:
>>
>>Extend check:
>>
>>A -Re5+-> B -Kf7-> C -Rxa5-> D
>>5         5        4         3 (depth remaining)
>>
>>
>>Extend out-of-check:
>>
>>A -Re5+-> B -Kf7-> C -Rxa5-> D
>>5         4        4         3 (depth remaining)
>>
>>  So the only difference is position B. In the first case you store depth 5 in
>>the hash table, in the sencond case, 4.
>>  In principle it seems that extending checks would give more cutoffs due to
>>hash table, but to get to position B you need a checking move, which would
>>extend (increase remaining depth) in the first case, and not extend in the
>>second.
>>  The result seems to be that both will work the same, except for leaf nodes, as
>>Bob pointed.
>>
>>  José C.
>
>
>Don't fall into his trap.  In the q-search, which I _explicitly_ said I was
>talking about exclusively, there is no "depth remaining" to extend.  His
>comments are, as always, nonsensical.
>
>If we were talking about the basic search, then things are a bit different.
>But I do it my way there for a reason.  It guarantees that I _never_ reach
>the q-search when the side-to-move's king is in check.
>
>But we weren't talking about that case in what I wrote and where Vincent
>responded with a completely random comment.

  But I think he's also wrong for the main search, because for interior nodes,
assuming as Omid pointed, a correct use of the hash table, the result must be
exaclty the same.
  I expect Vincent to understand it, but not to admit he was wrong for so many
years.

  José C.



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