Author: James T. Walker
Date: 04:40:54 10/14/03
Go up one level in this thread
On October 14, 2003 at 02:38:45, Jonas Bylund wrote: >On October 13, 2003 at 19:15:52, James T. Walker wrote: > >>On October 13, 2003 at 14:57:35, Jonas Bylund wrote: >> >>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:42:45, Djordje Vidanovic wrote: >>> >>>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:36:09, Jonas Bylund wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:19:14, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 13:09:03, Charles Roberson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You make the statement that Diep is a positional engine and you chose it based >>>>>>>on that. So, why did you run G/5 matches? At G/5 tactics and search depth >>>>>>>is crucial. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I would like to bring to your attention that tactics and search depth are >>>>>>crucial at any time controls in chess. >>>>>> >>>>>>Showing dimishing returns from increased search depth is so difficult that in >>>>>>practice there is little difference between blitz and long time controls. >>>>>> >>>>>>If engine A gets a beating at blitz, expect it to get the same beating if you >>>>>>repeat the match with long time controls. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Christophe >>>>> >>>>>Now that is not my experience at all, some engines do seem to be much better at >>>>>long time controls than at blitz and also the opposite is the case, however it >>>>>seems that engines that do better at blitz TC's don't have the same margin of >>>>>difference. >>>>> >>>>>Jonas >>>> >>>> >>>>Jonas, >>>> >>>>this _is_ an interesting issue, I admit. However, a very quick glance at the top >>>>section of the SSDF list will tell you that the best blitzers are up there, and >>>>the games played by the SSDF are tournament control games. I can draw a simple >>>>conclusion here. Naturally, there might be some conspicious exceptions... Could >>>>you please name a program that does extremely poorly at blitz and extremely well >>>>at longer time controls? >>>> >>>>Rgds. >>>> >>>>Djordje >>> >>> >>>Maybe not extremely poorly, but Gandalf is an example of a top engine which do >>>not do well in blitz games compared to how well it does in classic and longer >>>time controls. (Gandalf is still one of my preferred engines for LONG analysis) >>> >>>If you look at the playchess.com rating lists you will find that the top rated >>>engines are Deep Fritz 7 and Shredder 7.04. Now Shredder is another example of >>>an engine that, atleast used to do much better at long time controls, it seems >>>that margin has shrunk considerably, but still remains an issue. If it wheren't >>>for dual amd's and xeon's Shredder probably wouldn't be a first choice for many >>>of the users on playchess.com. >>> >>>My point about shredder is that i don't think it would top any blitz lists on >>>equal hardware. >>> >>>The point that CT makes is in theory the "right" approach i think, but in >>>reality things looks different. >>> >>>Regards >>>Jonas >> >>Here is my "Top 10" from my blitz database of over 19000 games. See any >>surprises? All games on equal hardware using auto232 and almost all are G/5min. >> >>1 Fritz 8 2489 2127 >>2 Shredder 7.04 2489 1171 >>3 Fritz 7 2474 3844 >>4 Shredder 7 2470 1140 >>5 Shredder 7.04C 2468 328 >>6 Chess Tiger 15 2462 2130 >>7 Chess Tiger 14.0 2456 2895 >>8 Hiarcs 9 2450 722 >>9 Hiarcs8 Bareev 2440 116 >>10 Gambit Tiger 2.0 2425 838 > >What hardware, books, ram etc.? > >A surprise to me is you have different ver. of the same engine, also where is >the same engine list using long time controls for comparison??? > >Jonas Why shouldn't I test all versions since they are different? Try the SSDF list for long time controls on equal hardware. I see no sense in duplicating their work (SSDF). If you want the entire list it includes Rebel 12, Ruffian, Fritz 5, Yace, Gandalf etc. etc. All engines I own and am personally interested in. I see very little difference between my Blitz list and SSDF. (There may be some exceptions) I have said several times here that I believe the SSDF is wasting a lot of time testing at 40/2hours since NOBODY plays that time control anymore. I believe there would be very little difference in the list if the games were played at G/60min. Jim
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