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Subject: Re: Diep as a strong sparring opponent (longish)?

Author: Jonas Bylund

Date: 23:38:45 10/13/03

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On October 13, 2003 at 19:15:52, James T. Walker wrote:

>On October 13, 2003 at 14:57:35, Jonas Bylund wrote:
>
>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:42:45, Djordje Vidanovic wrote:
>>
>>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:36:09, Jonas Bylund wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:19:14, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 13:09:03, Charles Roberson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  You make the statement that Diep is a positional engine and you chose it based
>>>>>>on that. So, why did you run G/5 matches? At G/5 tactics and search depth
>>>>>>is crucial.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I would like to bring to your attention that tactics and search depth are
>>>>>crucial at any time controls in chess.
>>>>>
>>>>>Showing dimishing returns from increased search depth is so difficult that in
>>>>>practice there is little difference between blitz and long time controls.
>>>>>
>>>>>If engine A gets a beating at blitz, expect it to get the same beating if you
>>>>>repeat the match with long time controls.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    Christophe
>>>>
>>>>Now that is not my experience at all, some engines do seem to be much better at
>>>>long time controls than at blitz and also the opposite is the case, however it
>>>>seems that engines that do better at blitz TC's don't have the same margin of
>>>>difference.
>>>>
>>>>Jonas
>>>
>>>
>>>Jonas,
>>>
>>>this _is_ an interesting issue, I admit. However, a very quick glance at the top
>>>section of the SSDF list will tell you that the best blitzers are up there, and
>>>the games played by the SSDF are tournament control games.  I can draw a simple
>>>conclusion here.  Naturally, there might be some conspicious exceptions... Could
>>>you please name a program that does extremely poorly at blitz and extremely well
>>>at longer time controls?
>>>
>>>Rgds.
>>>
>>>Djordje
>>
>>
>>Maybe not extremely poorly, but Gandalf is an example of a top engine which do
>>not do well in blitz games compared to how well it does in classic and longer
>>time controls. (Gandalf is still one of my preferred engines for LONG analysis)
>>
>>If you look at the playchess.com rating lists you will find that the top rated
>>engines are Deep Fritz 7 and Shredder 7.04. Now Shredder is another example of
>>an engine that, atleast used to do much better at long time controls, it seems
>>that margin has shrunk considerably, but still remains an issue. If it wheren't
>>for dual amd's and xeon's Shredder probably wouldn't be a first choice for many
>>of the users on playchess.com.
>>
>>My point about shredder is that i don't think it would top any blitz lists on
>>equal hardware.
>>
>>The point that CT makes is in theory the "right" approach i think, but in
>>reality things looks different.
>>
>>Regards
>>Jonas
>
>Here is my "Top 10" from my blitz database of over 19000 games.  See any
>surprises?  All games on equal hardware using auto232 and almost all are G/5min.
>
>1	Fritz 8			2489	2127
>2	Shredder 7.04		2489	1171
>3	Fritz 7			2474	3844
>4	Shredder 7		2470	1140
>5	Shredder 7.04C		2468	328
>6	Chess Tiger 15		2462	2130
>7	Chess Tiger 14.0	2456	2895
>8	Hiarcs 9		2450	722
>9	Hiarcs8 Bareev		2440	116
>10	Gambit Tiger 2.0	2425	838

What hardware, books, ram etc.?

A surprise to me is you have different ver. of the same engine, also where is
the same engine list using long time controls for comparison???

Jonas



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