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Subject: Re: Diep as a strong sparring opponent (longish)?

Author: James T. Walker

Date: 16:15:52 10/13/03

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On October 13, 2003 at 14:57:35, Jonas Bylund wrote:

>On October 13, 2003 at 14:42:45, Djordje Vidanovic wrote:
>
>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:36:09, Jonas Bylund wrote:
>>
>>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:19:14, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 13:09:03, Charles Roberson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  You make the statement that Diep is a positional engine and you chose it based
>>>>>on that. So, why did you run G/5 matches? At G/5 tactics and search depth
>>>>>is crucial.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I would like to bring to your attention that tactics and search depth are
>>>>crucial at any time controls in chess.
>>>>
>>>>Showing dimishing returns from increased search depth is so difficult that in
>>>>practice there is little difference between blitz and long time controls.
>>>>
>>>>If engine A gets a beating at blitz, expect it to get the same beating if you
>>>>repeat the match with long time controls.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Christophe
>>>
>>>Now that is not my experience at all, some engines do seem to be much better at
>>>long time controls than at blitz and also the opposite is the case, however it
>>>seems that engines that do better at blitz TC's don't have the same margin of
>>>difference.
>>>
>>>Jonas
>>
>>
>>Jonas,
>>
>>this _is_ an interesting issue, I admit. However, a very quick glance at the top
>>section of the SSDF list will tell you that the best blitzers are up there, and
>>the games played by the SSDF are tournament control games.  I can draw a simple
>>conclusion here.  Naturally, there might be some conspicious exceptions... Could
>>you please name a program that does extremely poorly at blitz and extremely well
>>at longer time controls?
>>
>>Rgds.
>>
>>Djordje
>
>
>Maybe not extremely poorly, but Gandalf is an example of a top engine which do
>not do well in blitz games compared to how well it does in classic and longer
>time controls. (Gandalf is still one of my preferred engines for LONG analysis)
>
>If you look at the playchess.com rating lists you will find that the top rated
>engines are Deep Fritz 7 and Shredder 7.04. Now Shredder is another example of
>an engine that, atleast used to do much better at long time controls, it seems
>that margin has shrunk considerably, but still remains an issue. If it wheren't
>for dual amd's and xeon's Shredder probably wouldn't be a first choice for many
>of the users on playchess.com.
>
>My point about shredder is that i don't think it would top any blitz lists on
>equal hardware.
>
>The point that CT makes is in theory the "right" approach i think, but in
>reality things looks different.
>
>Regards
>Jonas

Here is my "Top 10" from my blitz database of over 19000 games.  See any
surprises?  All games on equal hardware using auto232 and almost all are G/5min.

1	Fritz 8			2489	2127
2	Shredder 7.04		2489	1171
3	Fritz 7			2474	3844
4	Shredder 7		2470	1140
5	Shredder 7.04C		2468	328
6	Chess Tiger 15		2462	2130
7	Chess Tiger 14.0	2456	2895
8	Hiarcs 9		2450	722
9	Hiarcs8 Bareev		2440	116
10	Gambit Tiger 2.0	2425	838



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