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Subject: Re: Move ordering metric

Author: scott farrell

Date: 01:44:28 11/12/03

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On November 11, 2003 at 14:22:53, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On November 11, 2003 at 13:31:21, Peter Kappler wrote:
>
>>On November 11, 2003 at 11:25:59, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On November 11, 2003 at 11:09:40, José Carlos wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 11, 2003 at 10:52:20, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 11, 2003 at 10:42:10, José Carlos wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  So far, when I cutoff due to null move, I do BetaCutoffs++ but not
>>>>>>BetaCutoffsAtFirst++ so my 100 * BCAF / BC statistic gets lowered. Is there an
>>>>>>standard for this for I can compare with other people numbers? Should I count a
>>>>>>null move cutoff as a beta cutoff at first? Should I not do BetaCutoffs++?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  José C.
>>>>>
>>>>>Don't do anything in that case.  You only care about the ratio of
>>>>>[cutoffs on first move] : [cutoffs on any but first move].
>>>>>
>>>>>The higher that ratio the better.
>>>>
>>>>  So you mean not to count null move cutoffs as cutoffs at all, right?
>>>>
>>>>  José C.
>>>
>>>
>>>Right.  or you might count null-move searches done, and null-move searches
>>>that failed high, if you want to know how effective null-move search is.  But
>>>it is clearly independent of the idea of base move ordering where the first move
>>>should cause a cutoff if one is going to happen.
>>
>>This first-move-beta-cutoff metric is something that has always bothered me.  In
>>previous discussions, people have reported an average of ~90%.  For my program,
>>it's more like 80%, and I'd like to understand why.  I don't use a SEE to
>>eliminate bad captures, and also don't use internal iterative deepening.
>>Perhaps that's enough to explain the difference?
>
>Very possibly.  SEE makes sure you look at the "right" capture first each
>time a capture is the best move.  Without SEE, you might have to try a couple
>before you find the good one.  Breaking your fail-high-on-first-move count.
>
>>
>>If either of you have time to run a quick test with one or both of these
>>features disabled in your program, I'd be interested to hear how it affects the
>>FMBC %.

I dont have SEE, but have a function isWeaklyDefended .. which guesses .. it
helps some.

IID mainly helps when a new move becomes bests, and gets searched deeper than
normal. Normal iterative deepening does pretty well if the best stays best.

I get an average of better than 90%. It takes tuning. Work on killers and
history pays off. Make sure you search bad captures before other moves also.
Taking capture out of killers gave me a boost also.

Move ordering is all about tuning and fiddling.

Scott

>>
>>-Peter



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