Computer Chess Club Archives


Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Fail-hard, fail-soft question

Author: Dan Honeycutt

Date: 12:32:11 05/06/04

Go up one level in this thread


On May 06, 2004 at 15:05:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On May 06, 2004 at 14:31:08, Gerd Isenberg wrote:
>
>>On May 06, 2004 at 11:58:11, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On May 06, 2004 at 11:38:44, Dan Honeycutt wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yet again I apologize for asking a question which I'm sure has been asked many
>>>>times before, but could someone explain the difference between a fail-hard and a
>>>>fail-soft and how does is affect a PVS search?
>>>>
>>>>I made the guess that, ie, if (score >= beta) if I return score it's a fail-hard
>>>>and if I return beta it's a fail-soft.  It would seem that what I return doesn't
>>>>so much matter as what I put in the hash table.  If I put in the (possibly)
>>>>higher value of score then I have a higher lower bound and a greater chance for
>>>>a hash cut if this position arises again.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>>Dan H.
>>>
>>>That is backward.  But you have the right idea.  Fail-hard never returns a value
>>>outside the initial alpha/beta window.  Fail-soft does.
>>
>>I often confuse this hard/soft definitions too - i have the wrong mnemonic
>>trick. Intuitively i found it harder if i jump outside a window ;-)
>
>
>It is just as intuitive as where you store a lower bound but flag the position
>as an UPPER bound position.  Makes sense after a lot of thought, but it still
>leads to confusion...  :)

Are the there known implications on the search from doing using fail-soft vs
fail-hard?  From a tiny amount of testing it looks like my engine does best
using a fail-soft (outside the window) lower-bound (returning beta) and a
fail-hard (inside the window) upper-bound (returning alpha).  I'm sure I have
something backward in that last sentence - see my reply to Anthony below for
what I'm trying to determine.

Thanks.
Dan H.



This page took 0 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.