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Subject: Re: Fail-hard, fail-soft question

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 12:47:05 05/06/04

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On May 06, 2004 at 15:32:11, Dan Honeycutt wrote:

>On May 06, 2004 at 15:05:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On May 06, 2004 at 14:31:08, Gerd Isenberg wrote:
>>
>>>On May 06, 2004 at 11:58:11, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 06, 2004 at 11:38:44, Dan Honeycutt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Yet again I apologize for asking a question which I'm sure has been asked many
>>>>>times before, but could someone explain the difference between a fail-hard and a
>>>>>fail-soft and how does is affect a PVS search?
>>>>>
>>>>>I made the guess that, ie, if (score >= beta) if I return score it's a fail-hard
>>>>>and if I return beta it's a fail-soft.  It would seem that what I return doesn't
>>>>>so much matter as what I put in the hash table.  If I put in the (possibly)
>>>>>higher value of score then I have a higher lower bound and a greater chance for
>>>>>a hash cut if this position arises again.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>>>Dan H.
>>>>
>>>>That is backward.  But you have the right idea.  Fail-hard never returns a value
>>>>outside the initial alpha/beta window.  Fail-soft does.
>>>
>>>I often confuse this hard/soft definitions too - i have the wrong mnemonic
>>>trick. Intuitively i found it harder if i jump outside a window ;-)
>>
>>
>>It is just as intuitive as where you store a lower bound but flag the position
>>as an UPPER bound position.  Makes sense after a lot of thought, but it still
>>leads to confusion...  :)
>
>Are the there known implications on the search from doing using fail-soft vs
>fail-hard?  From a tiny amount of testing it looks like my engine does best
>using a fail-soft (outside the window) lower-bound (returning beta) and a
>fail-hard (inside the window) upper-bound (returning alpha).  I'm sure I have
>something backward in that last sentence - see my reply to Anthony below for
>what I'm trying to determine.
>
>Thanks.
>Dan H.

No problems I am aware of.  With PVS it doesn't matter much since almost all
searches are done with a null-window...




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