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Subject: Re: Just an idea...

Author: Nouveau

Date: 06:33:36 12/23/98

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On December 23, 1998 at 08:32:39, Harald Faber wrote:

>On December 23, 1998 at 08:23:33, Nouveau wrote:
>
>>>
>>>This reminds me on the Nunn test which indeed is a thematic test. 10 (equal)
>>>opening positions are taken out of the opening theory.
>>>Indeed some try to test strength with this test...
>>
>>I understand the Nunn test as a "engine without opening library" test : it's a
>>try to compare relative strength of engines. I think it's a good point to
>>evaluate "pure" strength.
>>
>>That's not the direction I thought. The idea is to look at the way programs deal
>>with different openings : some are complex, others positional or strategic, and,
>>for the games I looked at, different programs have completly different evals for
>>these positions.
>
>The Nunn test has different openings. Could you specify your idea where the
>difference is?

First, the Nunn test is without opening books, second the Nunn test has "only"
10 positions.

Let's take an example to clarify :

Theme : King's gambit (I'm an afficionado ;o)
Players : Hiarcs7, Fritz5.32, Rebel10, Junior5, MChessPro7, Nimzo99, CM6000,
Genius6

They play a multiple round-robin (white and black for each starting position)

Positions :
 - Fischer defense (1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef 3.Nf3 d6)
 - Kiezeretsky (1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef 3.Nf3 g5)
 - Modern defense (1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef 3.Nf3 d5)
 - Bishop defense (1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5)
 - Counter-gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5)

And with time, why not sub variations ?

For this example, we have, for each program 35 games with white and 35 with
black that is a good set to discover strengths and weaknesses for this opening.
Maybe (I insist : _maybe_) would we discover a true King's gambit killer or a
King's gambit specialist !!! It would be interesting for human player (for
trainig or studying).

What do you think ?
>
>>Besides it would be interesting, for me (am I alone in the case ?) to know which
>>programs play better (understand better ?) the King's gambit, the Schliemann
>>gambit of the Ruy Lopez or the Fajarowicz gambit. Other may be interested in the
>>Sicilian Dragon or the Giucco Piano. I'm sure we would find great difference
>>between programs of a generally same strength.
>
>I am sure but that is what opening book responsibles for commercial chess progs
>do. They try to find out which openings are bad and which are good for the
>program.

Does that mean that progs only play openings they "understand" ? They would
never play the French or the King Indian then ;o)). Besides most of the lines
end with += or = positions that are to be played...well played !


>
>>I read once (was it you ?) that the French is a bad opening choice for computers
>>maybe could we find one that has better results than others with this defense
>>?
>
>Such a difference will always be found in each opening. But I think French and
>Kings Indian are 2 openings that won't be played well at least for the next 5
>years.

So we do agree ! It would be interesting to investigate for important openings,
for fun or study or trainig...

Jeff



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