Author: Robin Smith
Date: 13:49:52 08/07/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 07, 2004 at 14:20:19, Uri Blass wrote: >On August 07, 2004 at 14:03:52, Rob Basham wrote: > >>On August 07, 2004 at 11:17:59, David Dahlem wrote: >> >>>On August 07, 2004 at 08:51:51, Thomas Lagershausen wrote: >>> >>>>[D]3r2rk/3n1pp1/2p1b2p/3q3P/pp1PNQ2/2P2P2/PP6/KB4RR w - - 0 29 >>>> >>>>In this speedchessgame in round two of the fide-wcc 2004 the IM Neelotpal >>>>(2457)found with 29.Rg1-g6 !! with the thread to sacrifice the rook on h6 the >>>>strongest move to show that white is not(!) worse in this position. >>>> >>>>I bet that every computer of the world wouldn´t have found this in a compareable >>>>time. >>>> >>>>So this is a lesson in tactics where computers can learn form human players. >>>> >>>>Do you agree? >>>> >>>>TL >>> >>>Forcing this idea with these moves: >>> >>>29.Rg6 fxg6 30.hxg6 Rge8 31.Rxh6+ Kg8 32.Rh7 >>> >>>We get this position: >>> >>>[D]3rr1k1/3n2pR/2p1b1P1/3q4/pp1PNQ2/2P2P2/PP6/KB6 b - - 2 32 >>> >>>Shredder 8 UCI1: >>> 1 00:00 -1.77 32. ... bxc3 >>> 2 00:00 -1.93 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 >>> 2- 00:00 -1.94 32. ... Nf8 33.Qg4 Bxg4 >>> 2 00:00 -2.21 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 >>> 3 00:00 -2.21 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 >>> 4- 00:00 -2.46 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 34.cxb4 Nxf4 >>> 4- 00:00 -2.96 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 34.Ng5 Nxf4 >>> 4 00:00 -3.24 32. ... Nf8 33.Rh2 Nxg6 34.Qc7 bxc3 >>> 5+ 00:00 -2.96 32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Nd7 35.Rg7+ Kh8 >>> 5+ 00:00 -2.30 32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Qxd4 35.cxd4 Nxh7 >>> 5 00:00 8.70 32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Qxa2+ 35.Bxa2 Nxh7 36.Bxe6+ >>>Rxe6 37.Qxe6+ Kg7 38.gxh7 bxc3 39.bxc3 >>> 5- 00:00 8.69 32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Rxg8+ Kxg8 >>> 5- 00:00 8.34 32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Rxg8+ Kxg8 >>> 5 00:00 -1.08 32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Qh7 Qd5 36.cxb4 >>> 5- 00:00 -1.09 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Rh8+ Kxh8 35.Qh4+ Kg8 36.Qh8+ >>>Kxh8 >>> 5- 00:00 -1.44 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Rh8+ Kxh8 35.Qh4+ Kg8 36.Qh8+ >>>Kxh8 >>> 5 00:00 -2.64 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Ne4 Qxd4 36.Rh8+ Bg8 >>>37.Qh7 >>> 5- 00:00 -2.65 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Kf8 36.Nxc3 Qxf3 >>>37.Qe7+ Kxe7 >>> 5 00:00 -2.82 32. ... a3 33.bxa3 Nf8 34.Rh4 Nxg6 >>> 6+ 00:00 -2.57 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Kf8 36.Qf4+ Nf6 >>>37.Nxf6 Qf5 38.Bxf5 >>> 6+ 00:00 -2.07 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Qxa2+ 36.Bxa2 c2 >>>37.Bxe6+ Kf8 38.Bxd7 >>> 6 00:00 -1.98 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+ >>>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Qxf5 Qxd4 >>> 7+ 00:01 -1.73 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+ >>>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Qxf5 Qxf5 39.Rxf5 >>> 7 00:01 -1.49 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+ >>>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Nxf6 gxf6 39.Bxf5 Qxd4 >>> 8 00:02 -1.63 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+ >>>37.Ka1 Qxd4 38.Qxf5+ Nf6 39.Rh8+ Ke7 40.Rh4 >>> 9+ 00:04 -1.38 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+ >>>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Qg8 39.Rxg8+ Ke7 40.Nxf5+ Ke6 41.Bxc2 >>> 9 00:06 -1.30 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+ >>>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Ke7 39.Nxf5+ Qxf5 40.Qxf5 cxb1Q+ 41.Kxb1 Rxh8 >>>10 00:13 -1.19 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+ >>>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Ke7 39.Nxf5+ Qxf5 40.Qxf5 cxb1Q+ 41.Kxb1 Rb8+ 42.Kc2 Rxh8 >>>11+ 00:23 -0.94 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7 >>>37.Qh4+ Ke6 38.Ng5+ Kd6 39.Qf4+ Ke7 40.Rxe8+ Kxe8 41.Qxf5 bxc3+ >>>11+ 00:32 -0.44 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Rxg7 bxc3+ 36.Ka1 Bg4 >>>37.Qh8+ Qg8 38.Rxg8+ Ke7 >>>11 01:03 3.24 32. ... a3 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.bxc3 Bg8 36.Rh7 Bxh7 >>>37.Qh6+ Ke7 38.Qxh7+ Qf7 39.gxf7 Rg8 >>>11- 01:05 3.23 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 Bg8 36.Qh8 Nf6 >>>37.Rxg8+ Nxg8 38.g7+ >>>11- 01:06 2.88 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 a3 36.Qh8+ Bg8 >>>37.Rf7+ Qxf7 38.bxa3 Qxf3 39.g7+ Ke7 40.Nd5+ cxd5 41.Qh4+ Kd6 42.Qf4+ >>>11 01:08 2.75 32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 a3 36.Qh8+ Bg8 >>>37.Rf7+ Qxf7 38.gxf7 axb2+ 39.Kxb2 Rb8+ 40.Kc2 Kxf7 41.Ne4 Ke6 42.Qh6+ >>>11- 01:10 2.74 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh2 Bxg6 34.Rh8+ Kf7 35.Nd6+ Ke7 36.Nxe8 Bxe8 >>>37.Qh4+ Nf6 38.Rh7 >>>11- 01:11 2.39 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh2 Bxg6 34.Rh8+ Kf7 35.Nd6+ Ke7 36.Nxe8 Bxe8 >>>37.Qh4+ Nf6 38.Rh7 Qxf3 >>>11 01:23 1.42 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 >>>11- 01:28 1.41 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Qf4+ Bf5 35.Qxf5+ Qxf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7 >>>37.Rxe8+ Rxe8 38.Nf6 >>>11- 01:28 1.06 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Qf4+ Bf5 35.Qxf5+ Qxf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7 >>>37.Rxe8+ Rxe8 38.Ng3 >>>11 01:32 1.06 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+ >>>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1 >>>12+ 01:37 1.31 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+ >>>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1 Rxb1+ 39.Kxb1 Rxb2+ >>>12+ 01:37 1.81 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+ >>>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1 Rxb1+ 39.Kxb1 Rxb2+ >>>12 01:47 2.74 32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 Kxg7 35.Qh7+ Kf8 36.g7+ Ke7 >>>37.g8Q+ Kd8 38.Qh4+ Kc7 39.Qgg3+ Kb6 40.Qhh2 Rec8 41.cxb4 Qxd4 42.Qd6 Qxd6 >>>43.Qxd6 >>>12- 01:54 2.73 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 >>>12- 01:57 2.38 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Qxf6 >>>12 02:05 1.40 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 Rxe8 39.Kb1 Re2 40.Qg5 Kf8 >>>13 02:37 1.28 32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6 >>>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 Rxe8 39.Kb1 Re2 40.Qg5 Kf7 41.Kc1 >>> >>>Regards >>>Dave >> >>That's my point! Thanks for posting! >> >>If by move 32 white showed a plus 7.00 or 8.00 score, then I would say that >>29. Rg6 is OK....and worth trying! >> >>As we can now clearly see, Only a plus 1.28 is not winning for white! >> >>Rob > >It is not a winning score but it is clear that white win material. >White is also winning by Rg6 as the following tree shows. > >[Event "?"] >[Site "?"] >[Date "2004.08.07"] >[Round "?"] >[White "New game"] >[Black "?"] >[Result "1-0"] >[SetUp "1"] >[FEN "3r2rk/3n1pp1/2p1b2p/3q3P/pp1PNQ2/2P2P2/PP6/KB4RR w - - 0 1"] >[PlyCount "20"] > >1. Rg6 fxg6 2. hxg6 Rge8 (2... h5 3. c4) 3. Rxh6+ Kg8 4. Rh7 Bf5 (4... a3 5. >Qh4 Kf8 6. Rxg7 axb2+ 7. Kxb2 bxc3+ 8. Kc1) (4... bxc3 5. Nxc3 Qc4 6. Qh4 Kf8 >7. Rxg7) (4... Re7 5. Qh4 Kf8 6. c4 Qxc4 7. Nd6) 5. Qh4 Bxg6 6. c4 Bxh7 7. cxd5 >Bxe4 (7... cxd5 8. Nd6 Bxb1 9. Nxe8 Rxe8 10. Kxb1) 8. Bxe4 Nf6 9. Bg6 cxd5 10. >Bxe8 Rxe8 1-0 Nice analysis Uri. Only one problem. How does White win in the final position of the main line, after 10...Rxe8? I think Black can set up a fairly easy fortress draw. I see no way for White to make progress in the queen versus rook and knight ending. Black will leave the knight on f6, and the king will go to h7, guarding the g-pawn while avoiding checks from the queenside. Black's king-side is totally secure. Black can then advance the b-pawn to b3, so that there is only one queenside pawn for Black to protect, which he can do with the rook, by shuffling between the squares b8, b7, b6 or b5. For example, in your main line after the additional moves: 11.Kb1 b3 12.axb3 axb3 13.Qf2 Rb8 14.Qe1 Kh7 15.Qc3 Rb6 16.Kc1 Rb7 17.Kd2 Rb6 18.Qc5 Rb8 19.Qd6 Rb5 20.Kc3 Rb7 we get: [D]8/1r4pk/3Q1n2/3p4/3P4/1pK2P2/1P6/8 w - - 0 49 Here programs think white is winning, but their evals stay flat. Typical of fortress draw endings. -Robin
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