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Subject: Re: Good news

Author: David Dahlem

Date: 08:05:18 11/19/04

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On November 19, 2004 at 10:46:49, George Tsavdaris wrote:

>On November 19, 2004 at 10:16:11, David Dahlem wrote:
>
>>On November 19, 2004 at 07:18:28, George Tsavdaris wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, for an experienced Chess-engine user like you, it is easy to see that
>>>when having a specific "small" score for many plies up to 16, which doesn't
>>>change at all, then the position is most probably a draw if we are talking for
>>>an edngame. (Smarthink finds the draw but it's materialistic DNA, prevents it
>>>from showing a zero score.)
>>
>>A draw score is 0.00 as evaluated by engines. It's not up to the user to read
>>the mind of an engine and interpret something different than the engines
>>evaluation. An evaluation of +1.23 certainly can not be interpreted as a draw
>>score!!
>>
>
> What do you mean with "it's not up to user"? If you suggest that the user
>should see ONLY the score of an engine in order to say if the position is
>"white/black wins" or "white/black has the advantage" or "game is draw" then i
>believe you are wrong.
> Someone has to see BOTH the score and the tendency of the score to value a
>position.
>
> For example if an engine for position A, gives the following:
>Ply-12 = 6.00
>Ply-13 = 5.87
>Ply-14 = 5.48
>Ply-15 = 4.32
>Ply-16 = 2.52
>
>while at position B, gives:
>Ply-12 = 1.02
>Ply-13 = 1.37
>Ply-14 = 2.48
>Ply-15 = 2.32
>Ply-16 = 2.52
>
>then you most probably(in most cases/positions) be wrong if you assume that both
>positions are big advantages for white, since at P-A we have a huge fail low
>that we can't be sure where it will end, while at P-B we have a more stable
>situation, although the scores at both positions are the same.
>
> Another example is if an engine for position C which is an endgame with very
>few pieces, gives the following:
>Ply-10 = 1.12
>Ply-11 = 1.14
>Ply-12 = 1.14
>Ply-13 = 1.14
>Ply-14 = 1.14
>Ply-15 = 1.14
>Ply-16 = 1.14
>Ply-17 = 1.14
>
>while at position D which is an endgame with very few pieces, gives the
>following:
>Ply-12 = -0.12
>Ply-13 = -0.16
>Ply-14 =  0.00
>Ply-15 =  0.37
>Ply-16 =  0.58
>Ply-17 =  1.14
>
>then you most probably(in most cases/positions) be wrong if you assume that both
>positions are advantages for white, since at P-C we have a stable "small" score
>for the last 8 plies, while at P-B we have a fail high that may end to a score
>+2.50 for example in favour of white, although the scores at both positions are
>the same.
> This stable "small" score shows that most probably white hasn't any really good
>move to do, but only just play it's pieces around although it has a small
>advantage(a Pawn more or some mobility more) and since most engines don't have
>the ability to interpret that this small advantage will lead to a draw, they
>just show this small advantage until we reach 50-move rule.

I made my point, that +1.23 is not a draw score, and i stand by that. I'm not
going to argue with you.

Regards
Dave



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