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Subject: Re: Most brilliant novelty from cct7 Witchess-Arasan

Author: Peter Berger

Date: 11:18:16 02/15/05

Go up one level in this thread


On February 15, 2005 at 14:03:38, Arturo Ochoa wrote:

>On February 15, 2005 at 09:29:58, Peter Berger wrote:
>
>>On February 15, 2005 at 06:46:04, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>
>>>On February 15, 2005 at 02:56:54, Peter Berger wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 20:08:42, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 19:54:03, Peter Berger wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, you opposed this point of view multiple times before in discussions
>>>>>>with Uri , but I think you never managed to score.
>>>>
>>>>>Of, I have managed to score several games during the year 2004.
>>>>
>>>>That's just a misunderstanding, because I worded badly :). My "scoring" only
>>>>applied to the discussions, not to the quality of your work on the opening book.
>>>>
>>>>Btw - it's not trivial to think of a good and practical experiment to setup to
>>>>show who is right.
>>>>
>>>>Peter
>>>
>>>Well, I have already done such an experiment and I know who will give the
>>>easiest point. It is great because it will mean easy points.
>>>
>>>However, I would not spend again valuable time repeating the same nonsense
>>>experiment.
>>>
>>>Arturo.
>>
>>I think you can't really do such a test properly on your own. And it would be so
>>extremely time-consuming to do in a realistic way, that I doubt anyone has ever
>>really done it.
>>
>>You mentioned the major problem I see in another post, learning as done by a
>>book author. This is a factor that has to be taken into account.
>>
>>If you take your opening book as prepared for some major event, it is probably
>>nearly 100% deterministic at start of some round. If you run it against an
>>automatically learning book in longer matches to get a measure for the quality
>>of your work, it will get beaten badly. It might do well in the first few games,
>>until the opponent finds some hole ( which in this case means just some line
>>where it can beat "your" engine) - then it will repeat it in the following
>>games.
>
>How do you know that a book mine is so "deterministic"? How do you base your
>facts in more suppositions without any proof? Well, I can argue that I have done
>such tests but I wont  reveal how I do such tests.

It was an assumption, because it is just reasonable to have a deterministic book
at the start of a given game. Why throw dices if you have an idea which move is
best in a given situation ? This doesn't mean that you don't have several
alternatives prepared. Of course there are other ways to do things, no doubt.

>>This is not a realistic test of what would happen in a tournament.
>>
>>But if you allow yourself to update the book during rounds, you have to allow
>>your opponent to do the same. Else it is not realistic again. Even
>>engines/authors who have a little book ,that is much shorter but every move
>>checked, will react to what happens in the tournament games. E.g. Uri chose to
>>just switch books after watching a movei opening he didn't like in cct7.
>>
>>The difference between a highly optimized book and one that just has few
>>adaptions is mostly in quantity in this discussion. While the optimized book
>>will usually have a few thousand manually entered lines the latter might have
>>only sth up to 50 ( numbers arbitrary chosen). The question is if you can be
>>sure that with the huge number of lines you don't add more garbage than quality
>
>Well, As you said "usually" and  your book was one thousand lines book. My book
>is bigger than only 1000 lines.
>
>This is not a relevant question because I dont generate a random book. My book
>has over 200000 lines added by hand. Sometimes, my decision about line has not
>been convenient. Maybe, you choose arbitraly  your numbes. I dont know how you
>od it and I am not interested in. My books are higly checked by hands.
>Sometimes, I dont have enough time to test them with the engines and it possibly
>means a bad result. But your question is not relevant of how I do my books.

I think we are getting nowhere here. I wasn't trying to steal your ideas on how
you do books or test them, but you obviously got this impression. This was meant
to be a thought experiment - oh and yes, "mine" is bigger than 1000 too :)

Be well
Peter



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