Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 11:12:05 04/28/05
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On April 28, 2005 at 13:19:07, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >>Because there is none. > >Look, the science question is "what is the chess strength of the machine". If >you ask that can you then measure the confusion of Kasparov? I would say no! And >this is already part of science we are in. No. That is something _you_ are injecting. The question was never "what is the chess strength of Deep Blue?" The question was "can the machine beat the best player on the planet at standard time controls, using the normal rules of chess?" The answer was "yes". > >We don't have real chess matches between machines and humans. All what we have >is exhibitional humbug. > > I don't know where you get that from. I've played GM matches that were broadcast live on TV and on the radio. I've sat across the table from these players and from my observations, they are treating the games as "real matches" and not an afternoon "lark". > >>No, I'm not "unaware of them". They simply do not exist... > > >Of course David Copperfield does also use science to prepare his spooky >delusions. Science isn't religion and you are not free to either believe it or >not. If you say that science doesn't exist in computerchess vs human chess, then >you are not a scientist... <gg> > > > Science exists in computer chess. But not in the matches that are played. Humans are too inconsistent and the standard deviation / variance is way too high to think in terms of "reproducible experiments". It just won't work that way so long as humans are involved. Even computers vary a bit due to minor timing changes, even if you try to play the same exact game over and over there is no guarantee that you can do that with a computer. > > >Bob, we are NOT in politics here. I say that it doesn't matter who fired the >first shot - IBM/Hsu STILL were responsible for a sober science in the >experiment... Bad luck for you (as a scientist). Times are gone that you as >scientists make your weekends of fun in computerchess. You must create sensible >rules for matches between the two spheres. Computerchess and Human chess. > > How can one create more sensible rules for a match, than to tell your opponent "you think about this match, you explicitly define each and every rule you want used during the match, and we will go along with your rules exactly." That is what happened twice in NYC. The only difference in the two matches was the outcome the second time around, which seems to be unacceptable to some. > > >You know that this is basically the death of serious computerchess as far as >competition with human chess is involved. Then make this clear in your field. >Or. Or find solutions to the problem. There is no "Doesn't work", "Never worked" >or "Won't work". This is solvable. If not forget about future competition with >human chess! > > Baloney. Because we also can not prevent the _humans_ from cheating either. Do I need to enumerate spectacular examples of such? Is human chess going to disappear because humans can find a way to cheat? Is human chess going to disappear because we can't find a way to prevent all forms of cheating until after they are exposed. Once we find a cheating methodology, it is possible to design countermeasures to prevent this. But even Las Vegas, with its years of experience in gambling, still can not prevent all forms of cheating, because nobody knows what "all forms of cheating includes" until they are discovered and then analyzed... > > >You mean you or the machine? Of course that is ok. But by all means I say: let >the machine decide things. Otherwise it's a hoax and impostering. And make exact >protocols to research things if wanted. Both. I prepared openings against specific humans when _I_ was playing. I did the same when my program was playing... Computers are _not_ human. Trying to make them such is not worth talking about today. > > >That is ok, but don't dream of the final matches after you gave birth to a new >baby... Go through the fire of improvement and success. > > DB was 11+ years old when it played Kasparov. It had grown, and been modified many times. Of course humans go through that same process as they age as well... Deep Blue 0 (deep thought) had played dozens of matches against GM players and won almost all of them. It was worthy of playing the world champion based on those games. Deep Blue 1 played Kasparov and lost, but it had its moments. And Deep Blue 2 beat him. It wasn't a "new star from out of nowhere" it was a process of evolution based on 11+ years of development. > >Of course Bob. But here you confuse ordinary time controls with Blitz or Rapids >- no? > > No. Cray Blitz / Crafty have played in matches of all three types. > > >Correction! I did never expect that machines followed a moral. But I expect that >you as operators of machines followed a moral! If NOT - then bye bye to >computerchess vs human chess... > > > You can't have it both ways. We can't modify the program during a match, we can't prepare a special opening book for the opponents we expect to play, but we have to handle the moral issues for the computer?
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