Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 05:06:55 02/25/99
Go up one level in this thread
On February 25, 1999 at 07:09:26, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On February 24, 1999 at 22:06:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On February 24, 1999 at 17:48:10, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On February 24, 1999 at 16:04:41, Dann Corbit wrote: >>> >>>>I have an email from Frederic Friedel, and I am fully convinced that Fritz did >>>>not 'cook' anything to get the answers right. >>> >>>I got the same email from Frederic and i'm completely convinced that Fritz >>>did cook. >>> >>>Frederic is playing the innocence himselve, but in the meantime he has >>>ordered to make an auto232 player for fritz that doesn't allow rebel9 >>>to learn, that exchanges colors so that other learners of other chessprograms >>>get confused, and that's just the top of the iceberg. This top has >>>been confirmed by Karlsson, which i honour for being so nice to admit >>>that fritz autoplayer doesn't allow learning. >>> >> >>I disagree with the above. The 'shortcoming' is in Rebel, _not_ in Fritz. >>IE if you can't learn when alternating colors, what good is learning, since >>_most_ real tournaments do alternate? > >>I've said it before.. what you can fix on _your_ end you should. In this >>case, it is a strange design decision indeed that says you have to play N >>games same color to learn anything... > >Comon get real Bob, > >You make a protocol, and i'll invent something to cheat with it. > >Example when playing crafty using winboard protocol one can easy >set up a position every move, and prevent crafty from learning then. > Nope.. 'position learning' still works so it still won't 'repeat' losing lines forever. >For every protocol one can invent such things. We have a protocol to >play each other, now unless the protocol is the protocol of a fool, >we can expect that we use a chessgame to fight, and not the protocol. > >For every protocol you make i can make my own autoplayer that prevents >you from learning! I'll take that bet... this is just 'incomplete programming'. The auto232 protocol doesn't allow one side to prevent the other from learning. If the program requires some 'key' from auto232 to 'learn' that is a bad design. If the program depends on N games with the same color, that is a bad design. But I'll bet you can play crafty all the auto232 games you want it _it_ won't fail to learn whatever you do. Even if you hit ^C to terminate it in the middle of a game, it will 'learn'. > >This is what happens here. > >Ed says suddenly something else now, meaning that more games it didn't >learn, but from Karlsson i received confirmation that Fritz doesn't >send the 'save the game' command. So I should write code that depends on "my opponent" to trigger my learning? As they say in the Navy, "Not on _my_ watch." > >Now i don't know how fritz5.16 represents results on the screen after an >auto232 session as this autoplayer is secret, so we can expect something >that suits chessbase. > >>>Even more important than disallowing learning is the fact that only fritz5 >>>auto232 player can collect the results. >>> >>>Let me give an example what happened. >>> >>>I got about 6 months ago a call from a tester who played around 20 games at >>>auto232 player against Rebel9. >>> >>>He told me that i should stop chessprogram development, as my program >>>didn't win a single game versus rebel9. >>> >>>So i first asked whether all games were more or less the same (learning >>>from rebel9 you never know...). He told me clearly that the games were >>>not the same as he turned off learning. >>> >>>This confused me. How can one not win a SINGLE Game vs rebel9? >>>It was quickly solved when i got back the games. >>> >>>Diep won lucky several games, but those games were long. The games it >>>lost were short (short after book). Diep was mated within say 50 moves >>>or something. The games diep won were all 60 moves, after which the >>>auto232 game stopped the games. However none of the games diep had >>>mated rebel9. Further a big bunch of the games were clear draws, or >>>3 fold repetition. >>> >>>Now diep doesn't collect game results. Rebel does, and the WAY in >>>which it does caused the confusion that diep didn't win a single game: >>> >>>rebel9 screen showed a questionmark where diep won the game, >>>and some draws got a questionmark too. Where rebel9 was winning, or >>>had mated diep, it showed that rebel won. >>> >>>People that auto232 play are usually very very lazy, and they have >>>the right to be so. So they simply see what is at the screen and >>>pass that on. >>> >>>Now this is i think very important to realize. ONLY FRITZ5 CAN SHOW >>>THE RESULT OF THE GAME, which might give the same confusion. >>> >>>Every new game that gets started the opponents learning is fooled >>>(if it has learning), and the number of games played is very inconsequent. >>> >>>Please check out the games of fritz5 versus mchesspro and see what happened. >>>So don't look to the ENDRESULT of it, but do it game by game. >>> >>>For example: >>>After the first game it was 1-0, after the second game it was 1-1. >>>Please do that for all games, so if 40 games are played i expect >>>a graph of 40 dots, also write down what openings line was played, >>>and some whizzkids here might slowly see how >>>silly SSDF playing is, and what the influence of a topdown form >>>of learning is when you play too much games with 2 small books. >>> >>>Yes DIEP is not yet at SSDF, because its learning doesn't work yet. >>>Without learning you can go home. >>> >>>Now this naive email from Frederic to me and to corbit is kind of weird. >>> >>>He as the boss must have known everything. His assumption that fritz >>>plays simply very good in the opening when playing on its own, is >>>laughable. That doesn't explain the difference of playing at the >>>nunn test set from 5.16 versus 5.32 >>> >>>Please post an open email about that here Frederic. I know you read this. >>> >>>If you are already reading that, then tell us why you have ordered >>>to make your own auto232 player special for SSDF, instead of a 20 >>>minutes implementation of the donninger autoplayer. Was beating >>>programs more important than 'how' to beat them? Was beating them, taking >>>advantage of the protocol and the fact that rebel learns only after >>>it stores a game, the only way to beat them? >>> >>>We hear that you too do a lot of efforts to play as well as fritz5 >>>can do. If i were in your shoes i would get myselve a good bookmaker, >>>the best one money would be able to buy. >>> >>>You better prepare, i plan to kick butt of fritz5 in world champs! >>> >>>Just like Bob i've prepared in a different way. I plan to run parallel! >>>But don't worry, even a quad xeon system gives diep 60k nodes a second, >>>where fritz gets at a PII-450 already a quarter of a million nodes a second >>>or something. >>> >>>Vincent Diepeveen
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