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Subject: Re: chess programer

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 18:09:04 11/07/99

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On November 07, 1999 at 17:55:42, odell hall wrote:

>On November 07, 1999 at 17:17:18, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 07, 1999 at 15:58:54, odell hall wrote:
>>
>>>On November 07, 1999 at 10:32:38, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 07, 1999 at 03:23:21, Lawrence S. Tamarkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Bob, On the other hand, you could be like Bobby Fischer when asked for his list
>>>>>of the 10 greatest player's, he was asked why he hadn't included himself on this
>>>>>list; the answer of course was that he would best any of them, so felt it would
>>>>>take away a placing of one of his selected 10:)
>>>>>
>>>>>Larry T
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nah...  I just had the opportunity to get to know everyone on my "list"
>>>>pretty well (excepting Greenblatt although I talked to him several times
>>>>by phone).  They are head-and-shoulders above me or anyone else I could
>>>>think of.  :)
>>>
>>>
>>>  If they are "head and shoulders" above everyone then why haven't they produced
>>>any quality chess programs in the last 15 years? (excluding ofcourse hsu) It
>>>seems to me the people you list are more or less pioneers in computerchess, but
>>>does this mean that they are the best? Because someone was first does this mean
>>>that they are neccesarily the best? I think 1. Hsu  2. Lang 3. Jonothan Dekoning
>>>(king engine)  3. Schroeder  is more appropriate to the question. Or would you
>>>mind educating us specifically on what makes these people you mentioned better
>>>than others?
>>
>>
>>Nothing other than the fact that they each _dominated_ computer chess when
>>they were active _and_ they published details about what they did.
>>
>>Any other questions?
>>
>>
>>
>
>       Yes ofcourse!!  Well didn't lang dominate computer chess in his day?  As
>well as schoeder!! I am sure I am leaving out a few others. What makes a good
>chess programmer? Is it how strong his program is? Or that he was the first to
>do something?  Not trying to be antagonistic, I just want to understand the
>reasons for your list. I notice you mention no micro programmers.
>


Lang may have dominated the micro programs.. but he _never_ dominated computer
chess.  The 'program to beat' went like this:

1960-1970   MacHack (Greenblatt)
1970-1977   chess x.x (slate)
1977-1979   chess x.x and belle (slate/thompson)
1980-1982   Belle/Chess x.x/Cray Blitz (slate, thompson, hyatt)
1983-1986   Cray Blitz
1987-present deep thought/deep blue (Hsu)

No other programs were close during those time periods, if you talk about
'micro programs'.

But as far as folks like "lang" go, how much have they _contributed_ to computer
chess?  _zero_.

Slate wrote the 4.0 article in Chess Skill in Man and Machine, the article that
became the blueprint for _every_ program written.  Iterated search, hashing,
killer moves, tip evaluation, etc.  The other names I mentioned did the same.

I look at who 'creates' ideas and then passes them along to others to be
improved/modified/changed/etc.  And I look at who produced _results_.  It is
difficult to argue with the history of computer chess back to the early 60's,
as the data I gave above can be found in most any good book...


>

>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On November 06, 1999 at 22:24:53, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On November 06, 1999 at 20:57:47, James Swafford wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On November 06, 1999 at 20:48:40, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On November 06, 1999 at 20:28:25, walter irvin wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> i wonder if there was a chess program and programmer hall of fame who whould be
>>>>>>>>>there if there could only be 5 ???
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>1 genius
>>>>>>>>>2 deep blue
>>>>>>>>>3.hitec
>>>>>>>>>4.fritz
>>>>>>>>>5.cm series
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>on programmers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Lang is main one that comes to mind any body have a suggestion if there could be
>>>>>>>>>only 5 ??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The first three would have to be Richard Greenblatt, Dave Slate, and Ken
>>>>>>>>Thompson.  Nobody else comes close.  Beyond that, it is wide open.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I think you are too modest, Bob.
>>>>>>>Wasn't CB the first to win a state championship?
>>>>>>>Mississippi? '83?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mississippi '81.  But that doesn't change my three names. All three were
>>>>>>most important to the development of computer chess...



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