Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 11:35:09 01/18/00
Go up one level in this thread
On January 18, 2000 at 13:16:23, Lex Loep wrote: >On January 18, 2000 at 10:00:55, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 18, 2000 at 05:18:44, Lex Loep wrote: >> >>>On January 18, 2000 at 01:31:12, Tina Long wrote: >>> >>>>On January 17, 2000 at 14:26:12, Lex Loep wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 17, 2000 at 12:56:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On January 17, 2000 at 10:24:05, Ernst Walet wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On January 17, 2000 at 10:12:14, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Someone just pointed out something that I wanted to get some confirmation on >>>>>>>>about this interface. Based on what I saw, it seems that this interface is >>>>>>>>breaking at least two things in "Crafty" if it is run under chess partner: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>(1) When sending a move to the engine, they first seem to send an "undo" >>>>>>>>followed by a "force" followed by the move, followed by "move". This simply >>>>>>>>tears up thinking on the opponent's time. Because the undo/force commands >>>>>>>>terminate the ponder search in crafty instantly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>(2) This also totally breaks my book learning, since it is done every move and >>>>>>>>crafty never realizes that it is 10 moves out of book, since the position keeps >>>>>>>>getting reset. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If this is true, it is just like the original version of the ChessBase >>>>>>>>interface, and means engine vs engine or engine vs operator games are no >>>>>>>>good, at least for the engines that are _really_ winboard compatible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Can anyone confirm this if you have chesspartner 4.2? IE play a few games >>>>>>>>using Crafty as one engine (assuming it supports engine vs engine games) or >>>>>>>>else play a few moves manually vs crafty in this interface, making sure that >>>>>>>>it gets out of book. Then send me the log.nnn file. We don't need a bunch of >>>>>>>>tournament results from this interface it if is really behaving like this, as >>>>>>>>the games are meaningless... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think I know who told you, as he told me as well. I tested it with the >>>>>>>Rebel-Tiger beta and can confirm this happening, alas. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ernst-J. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>If this is true, (a) it is horrible programming and (b) means no matches played >>>>>>under chesspartner are worth anything at all. That "trick" wrecks everything I >>>>>>do for sure. I assume it is not helpful to others. But in any case, in such >>>>>>a match, crafty plays without pondering, will _definitely_ clear the hash >>>>>>frequently, and can't learn at all. >>>>> >>>>>It is true, this 'trick' was necessary to get the GUI features like movelist >>>>>navigation, variations, game analysis etc. working kind of reliable. >>>>>(a) It is not horrible programming, it works the way it was intended, I just >>>>>did not realize it would break crafty. >>>>>Problem is the winboard interface was never intended as a computer interface >>>>>and has it's short comings, not to mention the variations amongst engines. >>>>>Anyway, the winboard adapter is being worked on and this problem will be >>>>>fixed soon. >>>>> >>>>>Lex >>>>Hi Lex et. al. >>>> >>>>I sort of understand this thread & need a little clarification. >>>>When My Chess Tiger program arrives: >>>> >>>>True or False? >>>> >>>>1) Tiger will play as it should with ponder (& learning?), in ordinary games >>>>and Engine v Engine Games. >>>> >>> >>>Absolutely ! >>> >>> >>>>2) Other Winboard Engines will play ok, but not have ponder on opponents time, >>>>or learning. So I can use them for playing, but not valid engine-engine >>>>competition. >>> >>>Not al winboard engines are equal, on some ponder may on some it may not work. >>>Playing in general would be ok. >>> >> >> >>I don't believe any will work correctly. The "engines-intf.txt" document >>explains exactly how an engine should behave when it sees a "force" and >>other commands. I don't even see how Tiger can ponder assuming you use this >>approach to the interface... To send a move to _any_ winboard engine, just >>send the move by itself. No force. No back. No "move" command. >> > >Tiger is not a winboard engine ! It works perfect in the CP GUI, with pondering, >learning, analyse game, analyse current position as you move through the game, >etc. > >Winboard is ok, as long as all you do is move forward one move at a time. > >Lex winboard works perfectly moving backward and forward. Just crank up crafty, click "analyze game" and drag pieces around... use the < to back up a single move, or << to back up to the beginning of the game. Crafty will happily follow you, providing analysis as you go. Using this 'force/move/go' kludge is not good however... for reasons that it breaks every winboard engine that implements the winboard protocol properly. > > > >> >> >>> >>>> >>>>3) Rebel-Windows Engine (when available) will play as it should like Tiger >>>>does. >>>> >>> >>>Absolutely. >>> >>> >>>>4) There will be a free patch correcting 2 available for download sometime >>>>soon. >>>> >>> >>>ChessPartner is a evolving product, there are regular free updates. Keep an >>>eye on our website or subscribe to our mailing list. >>>http://www.lokasoft.nl/uk/downloads.htm >>> >>>Lex >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Thank you, >>>>Tina Long
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