Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:53:59 05/06/01
Go up one level in this thread
On May 06, 2001 at 19:46:43, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>On May 06, 2001 at 02:28:14, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>I gave Deep Fritz to analyze similiar number of nodes to Deeper blue and Deep
>>Fritz seems to be clearly better in tactics.
>>
>>Deep Fritz needs only 191728 knodes to see the line Rf5+ Ke3
>>It means only 1 second if I asuume 200,000,000 nodes per second.
>>
>>I believe that Rf5+ failed low at depth 17 for Deeper blue for the reason Ke3.
>>The pv of deeper blue at smaller depthes is Rf5+ Ke2
>
>11 ply for those who are good in math and a bit more real to the world.
Uri is correct. Unless you _still_ dispute the direct statement(s) by the
Deep Blue team.
>
>>Deep Fritz probably does better extensions than Deeper blue because Deep Fritz
>>see big fail low at depth 16.
>
>Fritz hardly has dangerous extensions.
>
>Diep has. note i am not extending passers much. Just a bit and only
>now and then.
>
>The Big fail low comes at 12 ply for DIEP. Then it sees Rf5 is losing
>because of Ke3 though it initially wants to go e3. Then i did a state
>check to see what the deepest search lines are. You can see it
>yourself:
What does any of this matter? Their score was bad... yours is bad, black
is lost... I don't see where you see it any faster than they did...
>
>black timeleft=27:46.40.00
> - = - = r = - = Bg2-h3 37 b7-b5
> = - = - = - = - Kg1-f2 38 Kf8-g7
> - = o = - O O k g3-g4 39 Kg7-h6
> = o = r = - = - Rf1-g1 40 h5xg4
> o O - = o = R = Bh3xg4 41 Bf3xg4
> O - B - = - = - Ne3xg4 42 Ne5xg4
> - = O = - K - = Rg1xg4 43 Rd8-d5
> = - = - = - = - f5-f6 44 ...
>white timeleft=27:46.40.00
>black to move type 'help' for command overview
>
>clean
>Clearing all Hashtables...
>anal
>Analysis mode is on
>Process 1: engineflags=256 msk=1
>process 0: engineflags = 256 denktime=10000000 maxtime=10000000
>White can win here 0 worth of material
>Black can win here 0 worth of material
>00:00 0 0 9 (0) 1 -1.20 e4-e3 Kf2-f3
>00:00 0 0 11 (0) 1 -0.83 Rd5-d1
>00:00 0 0 183 (0) 2 -2.52 Rd5-d1 g6-g7 Kh6-h7
>++ e4-e3
>00:00 0 0 199 (0) 2 -1.20 e4-e3 Kf2-f3
>00:00 0 0 1828 (279) 3 -2.27 e4-e3 Kf2-e2 Rd5-f5 f6-f7 Rf5-f2 Ke2-d3
>++ d5-f5
>00:00 0 0 5187 (535) 3 -1.43 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e1 Rf5-f3 f6-f7 Re8-d8
>00:00 0 0 10563 (1709) 4 -2.20 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e1 Re8-g8 g6-g7 Rf5-f3 Ke1-d2
>++ e4-e3
>00:01 0 0 43088 (7077) 5 -2.77 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 g6-g7 Rf5-f3 Bc3-e5 Kh6-h7 R
>g4xe4 Rf3xa3
>++ d5-d8
>00:01 0 0 56971 (8004) 5 -2.76 Rd5-d8 f6-f7 Re8-f8 Kf2-e3 Kh6-h5
>00:01 0 0 66355 (8454) 6 -2.96 Rd5-d8 f6-f7 Re8-f8 Kf2-e3 Kh6-h5 Rg4-g1
>++ d5-f5
>00:02 0 0 110097 (21405) 6 -1.84 Rd5-f5 Kf2-g1 Re8-g8 g6-g7 e4-e3 Rg4-g2 Rf5-f4
>Bc3-e5
>00:03 0 0 240038 (76577) 7 -2.48 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e1 Re8-g8 g6-g7 Rf5-f3 Bc3-e5 Kh6-h7
> Rg4xe4 Rf3xa3
>00:09 0 0 769935 (257325) 8 -3.05 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e2 Kh6-h5 f6-f7 Re8-b8 Rg4xe4 Kh5xg
>6 Re4-e8 Rf5xf7 Re8xb8 Rf7-e7 Ke2-d3 Re7-d7 Kd3-e4 Rd7-d1 Bc3-d4
>00:16 0 0 1339014 (319828) 9 -3.05 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e2 Kh6-h5 f6-f7 Re8-b8 Rg4xe4 Kh5x
>g6 Re4-e8 Rf5xf7 Re8xb8 Rf7-e7 Ke2-d3 Re7-d7 Kd3-e4 Rd7-d1 Bc3-d4
>00:40 0 0 3585770 (1202456) 10 -3.37 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e2 Re8-g8 g6-g7 Kh6-h5 Rg4xe4 Kh
>5-g6 Re4-e6 c6-c5 b4xc5 Rf5xc5 Ke2-d3 Rg8-d8 Bc3-d4 Rc5-g5 Kd3-c3 Rg5-g2
>++ h6-h5
>00:57 0 0 5247889 (1574084) 10 -3.23 Kh6-h5 f6-f7 Re8-d8 Rg4-g3 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e3 Kh
>5-h4 Bc3-e1 Rd8-d5
>01:21 0 0 7525618 (1838512) 11 -3.43 Kh6-h5 Kf2-g3 Rd5-f5 f6-f7 Rf5-f3 Kg3-g2 Re
>8-d8 g6-g7 Rf3xf7 Kg2-g3
>03:22 0 0 19523564 (4145928) 12 -4.58 Kh6-h5 f6-f7 Re8-f8 Kf2-g3 Rd5-d8 Bc3-g7 R
>f8-g8 f7xg8Q Rd8xg8 Bg7-a1 Rg8xg6 Kg3-f4
>++ d5-f5
>04:51 0 0 28566321 (5711262) 12 -4.12 Rd5-f5 Kf2-e3 Rf5-f3 Ke3-e2 Re8-g8 g6-g7 K
>h6-h7 Bc3-e5 Rf3-f5 Be5-d4 e4-e3 Rg4-g2 Rf5-f4 Ke2xe3 Rf4-f1 Rg2-f2
>
>Now i did state check:
>
>State check of all 2 processors:
>go=true ttl=56708045 abrtd=9682316 q=0 nre=0 rms=-4129 local=1257982
>Locks: queue=0 nprctat=0 blocks=0 hash (t,e,p)=0,0,0 root=0
>Px dp_rl dp_q dp_mm abort mmlock mnr DBG wfm wfs
> 0 64 32 63 0 false 11 -1 false true
> 1 58 32 57 0 false 15 -1 false false
>Deepest lines seen:
>d5f5 f2e3 f5f3 e3e2 c6c5 b4c5 f3h3 f6f7 h3h2 e2e3 h2h3 e3f2 e8f8 c3b2 f8d8 g6g7
>e4e3 f2g1 e3e2 g7g8 e2e1 g1g2 d8d2 g2h3 e1h1 h3g3 h1h2 g3f3 h2f2 f3e4 f2e1 e4f3
>d2f2 f3g3 f2c2 g3f4 c2f2 f4g3 f2f5 g3h2 e1f2 h2h3 f5f3 g4g3 f3g3 g8g3 f2f1 g3g2
>f1f5 g2g4 f5f1 h3h4 f1h1 g4h3 h1e4 h3g4 e4e1 g4g3 e1e4 h4h3 e4h1 g3h2 h1h2
>
>d5f5 f2e3 f5f3 e3e2 f3c3 f6f7 e8d8 g6g7 c3c2 e2e1 c2c1 e1f2 d8d2 f2e3 d2d3 e3f4
>d3f3 f4e5 c1h1 f7f8 h1h5 e5d6 h5d5 d6c7 d5g5 null g5g4 f8d6 g4g6 d6d2 e4e3 d2h2
>f3h3 g7g8 h3h2 g8h8 h6g5 h8e5 g5h4 e5e4 g6g4 e4h7 h4g5 h7g8 g5f6 g8d8 f6g7 d8d7
>g7f8 d7d6 f8g7 d6e5 g7f8 e5f5 f8g7 f5g4 g7f8
>Current Line:
>e4e3 f2e2 d5h5 g6g7 h5h2 e2d3 h2h1 null e3e2 c3d2 h6h5
>e4e3 f2e2 d5f5 f6f7 f5f2 e2d3 e8e4 f7f8 e4g4 g6g7 g4g7 f8g8 null c3g7 h6g5 g7d4
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Deep fritz also can see another fail low for Rg8 at depth 22 when deeper blue
>>could get only depth 17 after similiar number of nodes.
>>
>>I do not believe that you lose more than 2-3 plies from null move pruning(my
>>test suggest that you do not lose even 1 ply at small depthes so I guess that
>>Deep Fritz can search deeper because it is a better software.
>>
At depth=3 null-move doesn't do much. But with _recursive_ null move, the
deeper you go, the more you get, because each branch of the tree can have
_several_ null-move searches in it... which collapses the tree to a pretty
small limit. I think it is a great injustice to conclude "it is a better
software". The people working on DB are at _least_ as good as anybody else
active in computer chess.
I ran this test on Crafty, just for fun. Thru depth 14, Crafty likes Rf5 with
an eval of +3.59, although it changed quite a bit in the first few iterations.
It gets a fail low at depth 15, after 6 minutes of searching:
13 1:09 3.50 1. ... Rf5+ 2. Ke2 Rg8 3. g7 Kh5 4.
Rg2 Rf3 5. Rf2 Rxc3 6. f7 Rxg7 7. f8=Q
Rxc2+ 8. Ke3 Rxf2 9. Qxg7 Ra2 10. Kxe4
Rxa3
(3) 13-> 1:41 3.50 1. ... Rf5+ 2. Ke2 Rg8 3. g7 Kh5 4.
Rg2 Rf3 5. Rf2 Rxc3 6. f7 Rxg7 7. f8=Q
Rxc2+ 8. Ke3 Rxf2 9. Qxg7 Ra2 10. Kxe4
Rxa3
(2) 14 2:04 3.59 1. ... Rf5+ 2. Ke2 Rg8 3. g7 Kh5 4.
Rg2 Rf3 5. Rf2 Rxc3 6. f7 Rxc2+ 7.
Kd1 Rxg7 8. Kxc2 Rxf7 9. Rxf7 e3 10.
Kd3
(3) 14-> 3:22 3.59 1. ... Rf5+ 2. Ke2 Rg8 3. g7 Kh5 4.
Rg2 Rf3 5. Rf2 Rxc3 6. f7 Rxc2+ 7.
Kd1 Rxg7 8. Kxc2 Rxf7 9. Rxf7 e3 10.
Kd3
15 6:18 -- 1. ... Rf5+
(2) 15 11:15 4.22 1. ... Rf5+ 2. Ke3 Rf3+ 3. Ke2 Rg8
4. Bd2+ Kh5 5. Rg5+ Kh4 6. f7 Rg7 7.
Re5 Kh3 8. Rxe4 Rf6 9. Rf4 Rgxg6 10.
f8=Q Rg2+ 11. Ke3 Rg3+ 12. Kd4 Rxf8
13. Rxf8 Rxa3
15 18:39 3.93 1. ... Rg8 2. g7 Rf5+ 3. Ke3 Rf3+ 4.
Ke2 Rf5 5. Bd4 Kh5 6. Rxe4 Kg6 7. Re6
Rd5 8. c3 Rd7 9. Rxc6 Kf7 10. Kd3
(3) 15-> 22:48 3.93 1. ... Rg8 2. g7 Rf5+ 3. Ke3 Rf3+ 4.
Ke2 Rf5 5. Bd4 Kh5 6. Rxe4 Kg6 7. Re6
Rd5 8. c3 Rd7 9. Rxc6 Kf7 10. Kd3
IE I think this is already totally hopeless. +4 is pretty good for white.
When I say "crafty likes Rf5" I only mean it thinks that is best, it thinks
black is lost here.
>>
>>kasparov - Deeper blue
>>4r3/8/2p2PPk/1p1r4/pP2p1R1/P1B5/2P2K2/8 b - - 0 1
>>
>>Analysis by Deep Fritz:
>>
>>44...e3+--
>> = (0.19) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00
>>44...e3+-- 45.Ke2
>> ± (1.22) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00
>>44...Rd1!
>> ± (1.00) Depth: 1/5 00:00:00
>>44...Rd1--
>> ± (1.37) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00
>>44...Rd1--
>> ± (1.37) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00
>>44...Red8!
>> ± (1.28) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00
>>44...Rg8!
>> ± (1.25) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00
>>44...Rg8! 45.g7
>> ² (0.47) Depth: 2/11 00:00:00
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke2
>> ± (0.72) Depth: 3/14 00:00:00
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke2 Rf3
>> ± (0.75) Depth: 4/12 00:00:00 2kN
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke2 Rf3 47.Bd2+ Kh7
>> ± (0.75) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00 6kN
>>44...Rg8--
>> ± (1.06) Depth: 6/14 00:00:00 14kN
>>44...Rg8-- 45.g7 Rh5 46.Rxe4 Rh2+ 47.Ke3 Rxc2
>> +- (1.53) Depth: 6/17 00:00:00 21kN
>>44...Rf5+!
>> +- (1.50) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 37kN
>>44...e3+!
>> +- (1.47) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 45kN
>>44...e3+! 45.Ke2 Rh5 46.g7 Rh2+ 47.Kd3 Rd8+ 48.Bd4 e2
>> ² (0.66) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 53kN
>>44...e3+--
>> ± (0.97) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 65kN
>>44...e3+-- 45.Ke2 Rh5 46.g7 Rh2+ 47.Kd3 Rd8+ 48.Rd4 Rxd4+ 49.Kxd4 Kh7 50.Kxe3
>> +- (1.47) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 86kN
>>44...Rdd8!
>> +- (1.44) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 149kN
>>44...Rdd8! 45.f7 Rf8 46.Ke3 Kh5 47.Rg3 Rd6
>> ± (1.25) Depth: 7/24 00:00:00 157kN
>>44...Rdd8--
>> +- (1.56) Depth: 8/16 00:00:00 199kN
>>44...Rdd8-- 45.f7 Rf8 46.Ke3 Kh5 47.Rg2 Kh6 48.Kxe4
>> +- (2.56) Depth: 8/18 00:00:00 221kN
>>44...e3+!
>> +- (2.53) Depth: 8/24 00:00:00 273kN
>>44...e3+! 45.Ke2 Rf5 46.f7 Rf2+ 47.Kd3 Rd8+ 48.Kxe3 Rxc2
>> +- (2.03) Depth: 8/24 00:00:00 335kN
>>44...Rd7!
>> +- (2.00) Depth: 8/24 00:00:00 526kN
>>44...Rd7! 45.g7 e3+ 46.Kf3 Kh7 47.Rh4+ Kg6 48.Re4 Red8 49.Kxe3
>> +- (1.94) Depth: 8/24 00:00:00 546kN
>>44...Red8!
>> +- (1.91) Depth: 8/24 00:00:01 585kN
>>44...Red8! 45.g7 Kh7 46.Rxe4 Rh5 47.Kg3 Kg8 48.Re7
>> +- (1.87) Depth: 8/24 00:00:01 602kN
>>44...Rg8!
>> +- (1.84) Depth: 8/24 00:00:01 673kN
>>44...Kh5!
>> +- (1.81) Depth: 8/24 00:00:01 694kN
>>44...Kh5--
>> +- (2.12) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 805kN
>>44...Kh5-- 45.f7 Rf8 46.Kg3 Rdd8 47.Bg7 e3
>> +- (2.50) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 890kN
>>44...Rg8!
>> +- (2.47) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 923kN
>>44...Rg8! 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke2 Kh5 47.Rxe4 Kg6 48.Re6 c5 49.bxc5 Rxc5
>> +- (1.91) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 1008kN
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke2 Kh5 47.Rxe4 Kg6 48.Re6 c5 49.bxc5 Rxc5 50.Kd3
>> +- (2.00) Depth: 10/23 00:00:02 1603kN
>>44...Kh5!
>> +- (1.97) Depth: 10/27 00:00:03 2372kN
>>44...Kh5! 45.f7 Rf8 46.Kg3 Rdd8 47.Bg7 Rg8 48.fxg8Q
>> +- (1.81) Depth: 10/27 00:00:03 2442kN
>>44...Kh5 45.f7 Rf8 46.g7 Rxf7+ 47.Ke2 Rd8 48.g8Q Rxg8 49.Rxg8 Rf3 50.Bb2
>> +- (1.87) Depth: 11/25 00:00:04 2876kN
>>44...Kh5--
>> +- (2.19) Depth: 12/29 00:00:06 4493kN
>>44...Kh5--
>> +- (2.19) Depth: 12/29 00:00:06 4763kN
>>44...Rg8!
>> +- (2.16) Depth: 12/29 00:00:07 5348kN
>>44...Rg8! 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke3 Rf3+ 47.Ke2 Kh7 48.Bb2 Rf5 49.Ke3 Rf1 50.Rxe4
>> +- (2.03) Depth: 12/29 00:00:09 6493kN
>>44...Rf5+!
>> +- (2.00) Depth: 12/29 00:00:14 10023kN
>>44...Rf5+! 45.Ke2 Rg8 46.g7 Kh5 47.Rxe4 Kg6 48.Re6 c5 49.Re4 cxb4
>> +- (1.50) Depth: 12/29 00:00:15 10790kN
>>44...Rf5+ 45.Ke2 Rg8 46.g7 Kh5 47.Rxe4 Kg6 48.Re6 c5 49.Re4 cxb4 50.Rxb4
>> +- (1.50) Depth: 13/30 00:00:18 12983kN
>>44...Rf5+--
>> +- (1.81) Depth: 14/35 00:00:27 19404kN
>>44...Rf5+-- 45.Ke2 Rg8 46.g7 Kh5 47.Rxe4 Kg6 48.Re6 c5 49.bxc5 Rxc5 50.Kd3
>> +- (1.84) Depth: 14/35 00:00:50 36597kN
>>44...Rf5+ 45.Ke2 Rg8 46.g7 Kh5 47.Rxe4 Kg6 48.Re6 c5 49.bxc5 Rxc5 50.Kd3
>> +- (1.94) Depth: 15/35 00:01:19 57957kN
>>44...Rf5+--
>> +- (2.25) Depth: 16/37 00:03:15 142651kN
>>44...Rf5+-- 45.Ke3 Rf3+ 46.Ke2 Rg8 47.Bd2+ Kh5 48.Rg5+ Kh6 49.f7 Rd8 50.g7
>> +- (3.06) Depth: 16/37 00:04:21 191728kN
>>44...Rg8!
>> +- (3.03) Depth: 16/37 00:04:42 206715kN
>>44...Rg8! 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke3 Rf3+ 47.Ke2
>> +- (2.25) Depth: 16/37 00:06:07 267902kN
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke3 Rf3+ 47.Ke2 Rf5 48.Bd4 e3 49.Kxe3
>> +- (2.50) Depth: 17/38 00:08:43 382453kN
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke3 Rf3+ 47.Ke2 Rf5
>> +- (2.50) Depth: 18/41 00:18:37 809804kN, tb=1
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke3 Rf3+ 47.Ke2 Rf5
>> +- (2.50) Depth: 19/42 00:33:27 1472226kN, tb=6
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke3 Rf3+ 47.Ke2 Rf5
>> +- (2.50) Depth: 20/46 01:06:01 2917465kN, tb=52
>>44...Rg8 45.g7 Rf5+ 46.Ke3 Rf3+ 47.Ke2 Rf5
>> +- (2.50) Depth: 21/47 02:35:13 6867428kN, tb=222
>>44...Rg8--
>> +- (2.81) Depth: 22/46 04:16:01 11410779kN, tb=435
>>
>>(Blass, Tel-Aviv 06.05.2001)
>>
>>Uri
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