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Subject: Re: ASCI White vs. Deep Blue

Author: Slater Wold

Date: 21:46:35 09/23/01

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On September 23, 2001 at 23:38:40, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On September 23, 2001 at 23:08:10, Slater Wold wrote:
>
>>On September 23, 2001 at 22:36:38, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On September 23, 2001 at 18:20:30, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 23, 2001 at 15:30:08, Lonnie Cook wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>* It weighs 106 tons
>>>>>
>>>>>* costs 110M for the unit itself (doesn't include the ungodly sum to run it
>>>>>every day)
>>>>>
>>>>>* Has 8,192 IBM Power3 processors
>>>>
>>>>>* 12.3 trillion ops per sec.
>>>>>
>>>>>* took 28 tractor-trailer trucks to deliver
>>>>>
>>>>>this was the part that astounded me. It said it was 1,000 X's faster than Deep
>>>>>Blue!!
>>>>>
>>>>>so we're talking about a machine that in theory could do 200,000,000,000 nps!!
>>>>
>>>>Noop.
>>>>
>>>>IBM power3 processors. i do not know what speed they run at. Let's guess
>>>>they run at 375Mhz. Hehe , a cheated guess kind of.
>>>>
>>>>Now i have some numbers on these processors, but those are a few years old
>>>>of course. These processors suck bigtime of course. NO one wants to run
>>>>on 375Mhz processors nowadays. But well let's assume that at a stupid
>>>>cluster which ASCI white is, that you can get a decent speedup.
>>>>
>>>>Now how fast do i run at 1 node? Well that's like 15k nodes a second.
>>>
>>>That math is bad.  I'll "race" you using any PIV of your choice, me using
>>>an 800mhz 21264 of my choice.  And my lowly 800mhz processor will toast your
>>>doors off.
>>
>>Here's a race on Crafty, using the same Crafty and settings:
>>
>>AMD 2x1.4Ghz
>>Total nodes: 95124934
>>Raw nodes per second: 1219550
>>Total elapsed time: 78
>>SMP time-to-ply measurement: 8.205128
>>
>>Alpha 21264(EV6) (2x667mhz)
>>Total nodes: 70350064
>>Raw nodes per second: 901923
>>Total elapsed time: 78
>>SMP time-to-ply measurement: 8.205128
>>
>>Interesting!
>>
>
>
>Your alpha numbers are not particularly good.  Tim Mann ran a 21264/600 last
>year and his single cpu machine was giving numbers like this on win at chess:
>
>total positions searched..........         300
>number right......................         300
>number wrong......................           0
>percentage right..................         100
>percentage wrong..................           0
>total nodes searched.............. 236973211.0
>average search depth..............         4.5
>nodes per second..................      783641
>White(1): execution complete.
>
>
>
>And yes, I mean that 800K was _one_ cpu.  You probably didn't use the best
>alpha options to compile it.  You should be seeing 1.5M nodes per second
>on that dual, or a bit more.  Tim's machine was 600mhz...

My 2x1.4Ghz gets 299/300 in the same amount of time.  The only one it doesn't
get, from what I understand, it did get it on that version.  (The version Tim
Mann used.)

The machine I quoted WAS Tim Manns machine!  As given on Michel's website of
Crafty benches.
(http://home.wanadoo.nl/michel.langeveld/CraftyBench/craftybench_hardware_withouthash.html)
 I did not compile that Crafty.  I am guessing Tim Mann did.

I admit, Alpha's are impressive.  Just not practical for me.  As often people
tell me, a 2x1.4Ghz is not practical for them.

There are positions where I get 1.2M nps, and some where I've hit 2M nps.  The
average (in a real game) is about 1.5M.

*Perhaps* when I sell my 2x1.7Ghz Intel, I will invest in an Alpha.  That should
be interesting!

One question:  Obviously a node on an Alpha is not equal to a node on a x86
system.  Mind sharing why?  Or giving me some references to read up on.  I've
only been around a few Alpha machines, and that was pretty recently.  And they
were all running Windows!

Thanks Bob!


Slate

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>>Slate
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>>>
>>>Don't just assume that 375mhz is bad.  The PPC is _not_ a bad machine. I
>>>have run on SP's...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Still probably optimistic number of nodes a second.
>>>>
>>>>So at 8192 processors, from which you can perhaps use a 1000 at a time,
>>>>I would get 15M nodes a second.
>>>>
>>>>Now that looks great, but that's of course on a CLUSTER. Speedup perhaps
>>>>10%. 1.5M nodes a second effectively, but the bigger the depth the less
>>>>the speedup gets as the branching factor will be worse, unless i accept
>>>>that the thing first slows down at each processor (which is a likely
>>>>approach) and pray that the latency is more than fast at this thing.
>>>>
>>>>So you sure outsearch deep blue by many plies, but not if a new deep
>>>>blue would be pressed on a chip using nullmove and DDR-RAM at it.
>>>>
>>>>So you are not faster in NPS, but search improvements would let it
>>>>search deeper. that still wouldn't make my DIEP faster on this machine
>>>>than DB was in nodes a second.
>>>>
>>>>Of course DBs focus upon only getting the maximum number of NPS (that's
>>>>how they advertised the thing. search depths have no commercial value)
>>>>sure made it faster than what i would get on this machine.
>>>>
>>>>>Is this really so for those in the know with hardware and these types of
>>>>>machines?



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