Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 12:34:19 12/06/03
Go up one level in this thread
On December 06, 2003 at 03:18:19, Johan de Koning wrote: >On December 05, 2003 at 16:35:33, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On December 05, 2003 at 03:14:40, Johan de Koning wrote: >> >>>On December 04, 2003 at 09:58:18, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On December 04, 2003 at 00:25:34, Johan de Koning wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 02, 2003 at 10:13:36, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On December 02, 2003 at 01:10:24, Johan de Koning wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>I know you know the I in ICGA and the W in WCCC. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes. "I" somehow equates to "European".. >>>>>> >>>>>>This organization is _really_ the ECGA, not the ICGA. And the WCCC is really >>>>>>the ECCC. World events are held all over the world. Continental events are >>>>>>held on a specific continent. >>>>>> >>>>>>>And I hope you know that 98% of this world's population does not care about >>>>>>>TG-day, nor about I-day, nor about Halloween, nor about UAb classes. >>>>>> >>>>>>This isn't about "UAB classes". It is about taking off for 1.5 weeks from >>>>>>_any_ job, spending a lot of money to trave, for room and food, and doing >>>>>>it _every_ year/ every 3 years, since these events are _never_ held outside >>>>>>Europe. There are other continents on this planet. But my stand here is well >>>>>>known and won't change anything, except that something will come along to >>>>>>replace ECGA with something containing a real I.. even if I means Internet. >>>>> >>>>>So you can't/wantn't invest the time, the energy, and the money. >>>>>That's understandable, but it applies to everyone around the globe. >>>>>(Particularly to those with real jobs. :-) >>>> >>>>I daresay mine is just as "real" as any other. I'm in my office at 8am >>>>M-F. I often leave by 7pm. :) >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Since North America is a big continent, it also applies to anyone >>>>>living there at one end and playing at the other end. In that regard >>>>>there's little difference between for example Boston, LA, Vancouver >>>>>and Tokyo, Sydney, Johannesburg. >>>> >>>>You miss my main point. The following are the reasons I can not attend >>>>a WCCC/WMCCC event. >>>> >>>>1. Time. The things take over a week. Old ACM and WCCC events thru the >>>>early 1990's took a weekend + 2-3 weekdays. That's a big difference from >>>>1.5 weeks. >>>> >>>>2. Cost. (1) makes (2) quite high. 3-4 nights in a NYC hotel is not cheap. >>>>8-9 nights is a lot more "not cheap". Factor in food. I can fly from the east >>>>coast of the US to the west coast for $100-$200 if I plan well. Multiply by >>>>10 to travel to Europe. >>>> >>>>3. The other points are just annoying. IE I would _never_ attend an >>>>event over Christmas or Thanksgiving. Most any other holiday I would work >>>>around. But the priority of holidays (IE July 4 in the current discussion) >>>>is _tiny_ compared to (1), and eventually (2). >>>> >>>>(1) _could_ be fixed. Why we need 11 rounds with 16 participants is beyond >>>>my reasoning. And if we really do, why the first 4-5 couldn't be done before >>>>the event, on ICC, is also beyond my reasoning. It could cut 1.5 weeks to 3-4 >>>>days easily. But apparently there is some interest in keeping these things >>>>"long". What that is is beyond me.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>There are of course cultural problems. Some people in some places >>>>>do not fluently speak your native language. Not to mention different >>>>>foods, different holidays, different ethics on recrational chemicals, >>>>>recreational weapons, and recreational driving (a panic break on "die >>>>>Autobahn" cost me to tyres). But again, these problems apply to everyone >>>>>around the globe. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I've driven on the Autobahn. I don't consider that an issue, other than >>>>most maniacs seem to collect there. :) I don't have any cultural issues >>>>that prevent me from traveling. I've been to many places. Japan, China, >>>>former USSR, London, Paris, Stockholm, Berlin, Amsterdam, and probably a >>>>few places I missed (totally ignoring North America / South America of >>>>course). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The bottom line is that you have to choose your excuses carefully. >>>>>An interesting optimization problem is to pick more then one excuse >>>>>without offending the rest of the world. >>>> >>>> >>>>My primary reason has _always_ been "time". 1.5 weeks is simply not managable. >>>>Would you like to sign up for a course in (say) computer architecture or >>>>operating systems or parallel programming or assembly language programming, >>>>and discover that your instructor disappears for two straight weeks? It just >>>>isn't reasonable. It never was reasonable. If you look at early ACM/WCCC >>>>events, they were 4-5 rounds. The reason was to keep the event short so that >>>>people could actually attend without wrecking their jobs... >>>> >>>>Cost is certainly a second-level issue. >>>> >>>>Holidays is mostly "noise". I have some constraints I personally impose. IE >>>>no travel on Thanksgiving or Christmas. I've traveled on other holidays with >>>>no real problem. >>>> >>>>So don't lock on to the "holiday" as "the deal breaker". The length of the >>>>event (for me) is the deal breaker. Combined with the cost, and it is just >>>>untenable. >>> >>>Judging from the last 14 lines, I did *not* miss your main point. >>>I just comressed it to 3 lines and managed to squeeze in a joke >>>about chess programming not being a job. >>> >>>So let's stick to this and skip European conspiracies, attacks by >>>freedom fighters, moronic TDs, culturally challenged organizers, >>>optimistic charters from 1977, and NYC hotel rates (which do not >>>apply to Europe anyway :-). >>> >>>Then the question that remains is: do we prefer a 5-round / 3-day >>>event? Or would we like one long week event including a conference >>>and non-chess games *once* per year? With still plenty of time to >>>sleep, eat, drink, prepare, and most of all, meet others. After all >>>informal contacts are the point of IRL events for global communities. >>> >>>Obviously I'm biased here, since for most part of the year my agenda >>>is empty and my bank account isn't. :-) But the usual July or August >>>should be convenient for academics. >> >>Note that that is an invalid assumption. I teach year-round. and, in >>fact, leaving during the Summer is even more difficult as the semesters >>are compressed into 12 weeks. Missing 2 weeks turns this into a 1/6 >>missed classes rather than 1/8. > >Though I can't quite reconstruct the math here, it seems that being >tied for at least 51 weeks/year is not a good thing. Perhaps UAb's >scheduling sucks, or you're taking part of your job too seriously. >In either case you have my sympathy (I'm not being sarcastice here). It isn't that bad. I think semesters work out to 16 weeks. 2 = 32 weeks. Add 12 for the summer and you get 44 weeks. That leaves 8 weeks roughly, although factor in Thanksgiving, two weeks off for Christmas, one week off for spring break, and maybe a week between terms and that does it... > >I could make a lame remark about students being better of with less >summer classes, but I'll refrain (here I *am* being sarcastic :-). > It really depends. IE what about international students? They really can't go home for 3 months then come back. That is expensive, plus there is a housing problem to deal with, etc. They want to come here, go to school non-stop until they finish, then move on, which makes a lot of sense. I didn't go full-time for my BS or MS, but I did (for 3 years) for my Ph.D. >>> Still amateurs with jobs and few >>>holidays have reason to complain, but they rarely choose to do so. >>> >>>... Johan >> >>You weren't around back then, but the very reason the ACM events were 4 (and >>later 5) rounds was for that very reason. It made it more affordable for >>everyone, this before there were professional computer chess >>programs/programmers. The WCCCs through 1989 were 5 rounds for that same >>reason. Somehow that has gotten "lost" over the past 10 years. Yes, the >>WMCCC events were longer, but if you look at early history, they were >>essentially all commercial anyway with big entry fees. > >Well, as I said it is a matter of trade off. >Considering that planning, preparing, organizing, and traveling is a >large part of any event (depending on your lifestyle of course), you >get more bang for your sweat in a 9-day event than in a 3-day event. > No doubt. And it would leave time for "fun things" too. However, the problem is it turns into a "dictated vacation" since it is so long and expensive. I'd be hard-pressed to convince my wife to go to Israel, for example, as there are many other places she hasn't been that are more attractive and less dangerous. But it is moot with the length of stay required during a school year... >... Johan
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