Author: Uri Blass
Date: 02:08:18 10/19/04
Go up one level in this thread
On October 19, 2004 at 04:50:16, Tony Nichols wrote: >On October 19, 2004 at 03:52:10, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On October 19, 2004 at 02:56:31, Tony Nichols wrote: >> >>>On October 19, 2004 at 02:31:54, Roger D Davis wrote: >>> >>>>Several years ago, back before RGCC even existed (before Rec.games.chess split), >>>>computers were lucky to beat human masters. Then the masters fell, then the >>>>international masters, and now computers are as good as most GMs, maybe as good >>>>as all but the top GMs, and maybe somewhat better than the top GMs. Who knows. >>>>The point, however, is that progress is indeed being made, and it doesn't show >>>>any sign of abating. >>>> >>>>My questions are these: Will computers ever become so strong that GMs will feel >>>>lucky even to draw? Will the percentage of GM versus computer draws slowly >>>>diminish, even among the top humans, so that computers will someday completely >>>>and totally dominate? >>>> >>>>Remember...chess isn't a solved game. Perhaps white always win. So as computers >>>>improve, they should begin to win more and more often as their strength comes to >>>>approximate perfect play. But even if white doesn't always win, it may >>>>nevertheless be that if the 2nd best move is made in any position, that side is >>>>lost. Maybe perfect play can only draw and anything else loses. And just which >>>>side do you think might make the 2nd best move...the human or some future >>>>Quantum-computing beast? >>>> >>>>Another reason to believe that eventually even the strongest humans will be on >>>>the losing side: Recently, it was posted that as computers have become faster, >>>>programs authors have actually been REMOVING knowledge from their evaluation >>>>function. In other words, deeper searches are better than explicit knowledge, >>>>this presumably because chess has proven to "consist" more of combinatorial >>>>tactics than of positional strategy. >>>> >>>>Accordingly, it would seem that the humans are the ones with the "horizon >>>>effect" (Surprise!!), meaning that the combinatorial tactics that computers >>>>handle quite nicely just doesn't reduce as much to positional rules as we might >>>>like. Sure, humans might learn a few tricks from computers as computers continue >>>>to improve, but once we've lost the lead, we won't ever regain it. What happens >>>>when a computer regularly searchs to double the number of plies we see today. >>>>Can a human GM even draw such a beast? >>>> >>>>Roger >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Roger, I believe that most GM's can easily make a + score against the >>>computers. >> >>In that case they could prove it in the israeli league when the result was >>importnat for their teams and not only for themselves by beating humans >>convincingly when the teams could choose the person to play against the computer >>but they did not do it even there and score near 50%. >> >>I remember for example that Yona kossashvili lost against Fritz6 and we are >>talking about human who did 6/6 in humans against machines in 1997. >> >>I remember that computers had bigger problems against weaker players and 3 chess >>programs could only draw against arnold hasidovsky that has rating near 2200. >> >>Remember that computers today are clearly better than the level they were in the >>time of the Israeli league so my guess is that most GM's cannot have positive >>score against the machines. >> >>Uri > > Hi, Uri > I'm not familiar with the Israeli league but I will accept your information. I >think Human players understand chess programs better today than they did then. I >would also say that if the engines had trouble with a 2200 player that helps my >argument not yours. I agree that programs have gotten stronger but surley not >500 elo. So if programs draw against master level players how can they be better >than GMs? > >Regards, > >Tony I think that the reason is simple. The 2200 player played for a draw when the GM's wanted to win. When you try to make a draw against computers your task is clearly easier. Uri
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